AM and Mortal Wounds

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mrazek22
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AM and Mortal Wounds

Post by mrazek22 » Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:24 pm

So if the last week has taught me anything, it's that IG is really really hurting for some mortal wounds. In one phase, I fired 64 shots at a Chaos Terminator lord, and his 3++ blocked every single wound. If I'd had my vindicaire snipers, they would have ended this before it became a problem. But those require a separate detachment, which is a big pain. I could have used a psycher, but the only ones in the IG codex are store exclusives which I can't find anywhere. Do I just point my whole army at the Chaos lord and say cheese, or is this a major drawback of IG and it's just how it is?

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Re: AM and Mortal Wounds

Post by Ronin » Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:25 pm

It's not that your guard are ineffective, it's that it's statistics the terminator would be able to shrug off the shots. 64 at B3+ means 32 will hit on average with 1/3 of them wounding and him failing 1/6 of the time assuming he didn't bring any form of feel no pain. That's an average of 1.77 wounds per volley of 64. What kills you is the fact you're shooting with BS 3+ models and you need 5+ to wound. If you want to take them down easier, use weapons that are a higher strength than their toughness value and have AP. Avoid shooting at anything where you need a 5+ to wound unless you really have to. It's not that the guard codex is bad (they seriously aren't this edition), but you just need to optimize your target priority and know when each weapon is appropriate to use.

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Re: AM and Mortal Wounds

Post by Signet-Powers » Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:35 pm

A Chaos Lord is a job for the real heavy stuff like a basilisk shell, not a lasgun. :) Now a Basilisk or Leman Russ cannon won't get past the invulnerable save, but, it'll get more wounds and so more dice to role to try and beat the invulnerable save (and does more damage to boot).

In regards to Psykers, just make a custom one. As long as its with GW bits the store should be perfectly okay with it. The Scions have a lot bits like sticks and coats you can use if you have any spare. This isn't mine but you can see he uses the scion bits:
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Re: AM and Mortal Wounds

Post by mrazek22 » Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:10 am

That looks AWESOME. It's a company commander body and legs, a scion command rod, a regular IG right arm (from the Vox model if I am correct), but I can't find the head..self made?

In any event, I grow scared when a model looks at my army and shrugs off 64 shots of anything...

I grow really upset when that happens twice in a row, and then the unit walks up and takes his axe to my Taurox. Which proceeds to explode and take out my HWT next to it.

I hate Chaos Terminator Lords.

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Re: AM and Mortal Wounds

Post by Ronin » Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:32 am

How are you going to fight Mortarion with that attitude. I sense lack of faith in the Emperor's weapons. ;)

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Re: AM and Mortal Wounds

Post by mrazek22 » Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:32 pm

Well, for starters, I am outright refusing to play with any named character armies. I won't deploy Marbo, Creed, Straken, etc, they shouldn't either. It breaks lore, fluff, and the point. Unless we're in a narrative battle with 5000pt armies, there is no reason a CHAOS GOD is all the sudden coming out of the blue hells to wreck my taurox and 15 scions with Guard back up.

Secondly, if we are playing those army pt sizes, I have a trio of Shadow Swords that would like to say HELLO from across the map.

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Re: AM and Mortal Wounds

Post by Ronin » Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:03 pm

Wait, you refuse to play against named characters as and against? Most of them aren't that OP.

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Re: AM and Mortal Wounds

Post by mrazek22 » Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:18 pm

It's not that uncommon. And frankly, it's a big pain in the butt. Here's this super powerful thing that can totally wreck house, that can't be targeted except with extreme options, and can pretty much end matches.

See: Celestine - the unkillable living god.
See: Malcador - the slightly more killable summoner who can one shot everything from a rhino to a baneblade.
Kaldor Draigo - NO.
Sly Marbo - I refuse to play this model until GW fixes his fricking stats. He's a slightly better Catachan with a special knife.
Gazgul Thraka - See Malcador, with less wounds.

Basically I hate that you can pay to win, and these models, with the exception of all the IG heroes, are completely game altering. If you whip out Celestine, I can't prepare for that. I literally can't fight an unkillable. Malcador will wreck me without trying. So I don't try.

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Re: AM and Mortal Wounds

Post by Ronin » Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:38 pm

Celestine is a glass cannon at toughness 3, though. Last time I ran her, she got killed by a company commander with a laspistol lol. I'm not aware of any models for Malcador the Sigilite or did you mean someone else? Draigo is almost the same as any character with terminator armor and storm shield. Sure he hits hard as a truck, but he's only T4 and will fail saves a third of the time especially with how prevalent AP weapons are these days. Named characters aren't the worst of what this edition has to offer considering it's generic units that are breaking the game like conscripts and stormravens early 8th, Leman Russ's, and now Dark Reapers. No one is guaranteed to win because they run named characters. I'd argue that tank commanders and company commanders are OP because of how cheap they are and how much utility they can bring in orders. Those guys are the ones that really act as a force multiplier especially if you run them as CP farms.

Maybe the issue is your army has too much damage 1 weapons and not enough multi damage which is why you're having trouble with characters.

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Re: AM and Mortal Wounds

Post by Koonitz » Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:02 pm

Personally, I also have a problem with named/special characters, however for other reasons.

First and foremost, I have an intense bias against them because I grew up in 3rd Edition, where EVERY special character required opponents permission to field, so they were never used.

Second, in 8th Edition, it's feeling like it's the edition of hero-hammer, where every special character is a 'better' version of something else you could take (and are hugely undercosted for their 'better stats'), or are unique, and are so over-the-top and provide such exceptional benefits over their alternative options that you will effectively ALWAYS see them in every army of their patron type.

Space Marines? Better prepare to fight Guilliman's Ultramarines (et al.). Rerolling all the things in one package? Can't be beat.

Death Guard/Thousand Sons? Best bet Mortarion and Magnus are in there somewhere (remember when it was the thing to do to have both of them in the same list?). I, frankly, don't want to be "just another Thousand Sons army with Magnus in it".

AdMech? CAWL'S MARS, BABY! (See Guilliman).

Imperial Soup? Celestine, all the way! Where's the rest of the Sisters? *shrugs*



My best example of how special characters just feel under-costed is in the Thousand Sons, because I am playing that army and know their rules best. Every Thousand Sons list will want an Exalted Sorcerer or two. Not just because it's pretty much our only HQ choice (We have Daemon Prince, or wizard variants 1, 2, and 3).

If you ignore the disc option (as they are the same upgrade for both), Ahriman has an identical stat-line and rules to an Exalted Sorcerer, excepting these variations:
- One extra spell known
- One extra cast/deny per turn
- 4+ invulnerable save (compared to 5+)
- A force stave that does flat 3 damage, instead of d3
- An inbuilt +1 to casting and denying.

How many points, do you wonder, does all this cost over a standard exalted sorcerer? Apparently, GW believes it is 10 points. TEN POINTS more than a regular Exalted sorcerer. I'd pay 10 points for the extra spell/cast/deny, OR the +1 invuln, OR the +1 casting/denying, OR the extra damage stave. GW gives you ALL of them. You're flat gimping yourself if you don't take Ahriman over a regular Exalted Sorcerer.

The only drawback is that IF you make him your warlord, you're stuck to one warlord trait. First, that warlord trait isn't that bad (+1 invuln, making him 3++). Second, he ALREADY HAS three warlord traits built into those stat boosts (+1 casting, note the trait does NOT give +1 deny), +1 invuln (normally 5+ on the others, remember), and +1 spell known.

That irritates me to no end, when I don't WANT to take special characters, but feel like I have to if I want to come close to an efficient list.


TL;DR: Special characters are boring and so widespread that I grow tired of seeing them. To be honest, I flat turn off an online batrep if I see any of the special characters I named above.
Armies:
40k: Knights Cynosure Iron Hands successor chapter, House Terryn Questor Imperialis, Thousand Sons/Tzeentch Daemons
30k: Thousand Sons
Age of Sigmar: Sylvaneth, Disciples of Tzeentch

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Re: AM and Mortal Wounds

Post by mrazek22 » Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:48 pm

Everything you just said. 10/10. It's becoming a weird super-expensive, super slow version of DOTA. Since getting into the game in 8th, I have not seen a single objective based match. All Deathmatch, all hero based armies. The funny thing to me is, if I DON'T take Celestine/Creed/Strakken/Pask, et al, I'm stuck with a company commander. A featureless boring model that can give orders and die. I either pay to have the big exciting units, or I have a crap HQ. Everything else is either expensive, unable to be found, or I have to "pretend".

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"That's my Psycher HQ!"

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Re: AM and Mortal Wounds

Post by Ronin » Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:01 pm

No one plays objectives in your group? That's more of an issue with folks not pushing for it more. Kill points is probably the worst mission to play. I don't think you need named characters for your army to be effective unless you're shooting for a tournament meta. Most of my lists run generic HQs and they do just fine against folks with named characters. To be fair, I haven't seen a Primarch on the table in a while and among the bros I usually game with, I'm the only one who has a Guilliman on the shelf which I rarely field unless it's apocalypse. The last named character I ran was Draigo, but he hardly made a difference in the game against gunline marines.

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Re: AM and Mortal Wounds

Post by Koonitz » Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:06 pm

mrazek22 wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:48 pm
The funny thing to me is, if I DON'T take Celestine/Creed/Strakken/Pask, et al, I'm stuck with a company commander. A featureless boring model that can give orders and die.
Personally, though, I find the generic models much better than the named characters (I absolutely adored when they introduced relic for generic characters!). Because I can personalize them, make them my own. My Thousand Sons Legion Praetor is an archaeologist, and leader of the VIth Thousand Sons archaeological expeditionary fleet. He wears cataphractii terminator armour, wields a volkite serpenta (acquired on Wedroayama, when his force was re-armed with volkite weaponry to deal with an indigenous Xenos population, kept as a personal link to the Burmese Ruby, the crown jewel of that volkite re-armament, a Legion Glaive special weapons tank), has a tutelary that manifests as a small, shimmering blue and purple faerie dragon named Lockheed (I'm sure many will get the reference), and wields a staff recovered in one of his digs that, while completely useless as an arcane focus like most other force staves, is hugely destructive, with a power field that atomizes anything it touches (spoiler alert: It's a necron staff).

His primary means of transportation is an old Land Raider Proteus (a common sight among the archaeological expeditionary fleets), equipped with a sophisticated explorator augur array. The array is used extensively by his team in their expeditions to find lost civilizations and ancient relics.

In 30k, he's a generic Legion Praetor in cataphractii terminator armour, with volkite serpenta and a Paragon blade, upgraded to level 3 psychic mastery. In 40k, he's a generic Sorcerer in Terminator armour with a inferno combi-bolter, force stave and familiar.

You can easily do the same with your tank commanders. For instance, is your company commander a colonel-commissar? My old Armoured Company was lead by a colonel-commissar who brooked no nonsense or even laziness amongst the tank crews under his command. He was most often seen in the cupola of his Leman Russ conqueror, the lighter calibre weapon allowing him to maintain a more rapid pace on the battlefield, supporting failing flanks, or spearheading armoured cavalry charges (exemplifying the adage "DRIVE ME CLOSER, I WANT TO HIT THEM WITH MY SWORD!").

You just can't do that when you say "I HAVE PASK!"
Armies:
40k: Knights Cynosure Iron Hands successor chapter, House Terryn Questor Imperialis, Thousand Sons/Tzeentch Daemons
30k: Thousand Sons
Age of Sigmar: Sylvaneth, Disciples of Tzeentch

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Re: AM and Mortal Wounds

Post by Lord-Terrycus » Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:15 pm

Koonitz wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:02 pm
Personally, I also have a problem with named/special characters, however for other reasons.

First and foremost, I have an intense bias against them because I grew up in 3rd Edition, where EVERY special character required opponents permission to field, so they were never used.

Second, in 8th Edition, it's feeling like it's the edition of hero-hammer, where every special character is a 'better' version of something else you could take (and are hugely undercosted for their 'better stats'), or are unique, and are so over-the-top and provide such exceptional benefits over their alternative options that you will effectively ALWAYS see them in every army of their patron type.

Space Marines? Better prepare to fight Guilliman's Ultramarines (et al.). Rerolling all the things in one package? Can't be beat.

Death Guard/Thousand Sons? Best bet Mortarion and Magnus are in there somewhere (remember when it was the thing to do to have both of them in the same list?). I, frankly, don't want to be "just another Thousand Sons army with Magnus in it".

AdMech? CAWL'S MARS, BABY! (See Guilliman).

Imperial Soup? Celestine, all the way! Where's the rest of the Sisters? *shrugs*



My best example of how special characters just feel under-costed is in the Thousand Sons, because I am playing that army and know their rules best. Every Thousand Sons list will want an Exalted Sorcerer or two. Not just because it's pretty much our only HQ choice (We have Daemon Prince, or wizard variants 1, 2, and 3).

If you ignore the disc option (as they are the same upgrade for both), Ahriman has an identical stat-line and rules to an Exalted Sorcerer, excepting these variations:
- One extra spell known
- One extra cast/deny per turn
- 4+ invulnerable save (compared to 5+)
- A force stave that does flat 3 damage, instead of d3
- An inbuilt +1 to casting and denying.

How many points, do you wonder, does all this cost over a standard exalted sorcerer? Apparently, GW believes it is 10 points. TEN POINTS more than a regular Exalted sorcerer. I'd pay 10 points for the extra spell/cast/deny, OR the +1 invuln, OR the +1 casting/denying, OR the extra damage stave. GW gives you ALL of them. You're flat gimping yourself if you don't take Ahriman over a regular Exalted Sorcerer.

The only drawback is that IF you make him your warlord, you're stuck to one warlord trait. First, that warlord trait isn't that bad (+1 invuln, making him 3++). Second, he ALREADY HAS three warlord traits built into those stat boosts (+1 casting, note the trait does NOT give +1 deny), +1 invuln (normally 5+ on the others, remember), and +1 spell known.

That irritates me to no end, when I don't WANT to take special characters, but feel like I have to if I want to come close to an efficient list.


TL;DR: Special characters are boring and so widespread that I grow tired of seeing them. To be honest, I flat turn off an online batrep if I see any of the special characters I named above.
This is why, when I make my army’s myself, I never go with special characters. There is only Your Knight-Commander, not some special named snowflake. Also why I was generally considering making said Knight Commsnders slightly less powerful leaders to make them a personally more powerful fighter. Dunno how it would work out, but it might.
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Re: AM and Mortal Wounds

Post by Ronin » Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:27 pm

I run 3 tank commanders in my guard list and I just fluff it as my guard are very elite since they've been through some terrible wars and campaigns and lost their homeworld so every survivor has to serve some way. This is the guard army I used in the old MWG campaigns and it's to the point where the adults are veteran squads and the teenagers and kids are the infantry squads. :P

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