Regarding the Adeptus Custodes and the Flakburst missiles...

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Aclys
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Regarding the Adeptus Custodes and the Flakburst missiles...

Post by Aclys » Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:07 pm

So, this topic is me asking a perhaps silly question... What is the point of the dawneagle bikers using the flakburst missiles of their salvo launcher?

Obviously there are a few niche times, such as Eldar fliers with a -3 to hit penalty, where they could be better... But between being str 7 rather than 8 and re rolling wounds to vehicles and, more critically, having a -1 ap vs ap -4, even with firing d3 shots instead of a default of 1, the d6 damage and the prior factors seem like they would make using melta missiles on fliers the better option 9 times out of 10.

Am I missing something? Unless you're splattering space marines on jump packs and like "fliers", in which case you should be using the hurricane bolters anyway, the salvo launcher seems to simply be flat out more likely to murder a single flying target with melta-missiles far more reliably than using the flakburst. If they were at least -2 save, retained the d6 damage or did Something to make up for the fact that you're trading 3 shots that are not as likely to wound, a Lot less likely to penetrate armor and will probably do half the damage of the one shot version.


Also, as a very strong alternative to salvo launchers the forge world models, specifically the fast attack grav tank, is an utter god-sent as its a long ranged, highly mobile weapons platform that will rip armored targets to pieces, even limited to one per detachment getting one or two of these and saving points by only using dawneagles with hurricane bolters seems like the definitive way to go, unless you either cant use forgeworld or you simply would rather use imperial allies.

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Re: Regarding the Adeptus Custodes and the Flakburst missiles...

Post by Marit Lage » Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:25 pm

I think you're forgetting the piles of infantry and bikes with the [FLY] rule.
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Re: Regarding the Adeptus Custodes and the Flakburst missiles...

Post by Aclys » Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:06 pm

no, I did not. for those you have the hurricane bolters who are considerably better at mulching infantry, flying or not.

Obviously, if you have a salvo launcher and nothing to shoot at that isnt infantry, then the flakburst might as well be what you shoot... but that's hardly its intended purpose.

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Re: Regarding the Adeptus Custodes and the Flakburst missiles...

Post by Marit Lage » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:33 pm

Aclys wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:06 pm
no, I did not. for those you have the hurricane bolters who are considerably better at mulching infantry, flying or not.

Obviously, if you have a salvo launcher and nothing to shoot at that isnt infantry, then the flakburst might as well be what you shoot... but that's hardly its intended purpose.
Considering the launcher's primary targets are vehicles, the flakburst is another option to mutilate fast moving units like jetbikes and Plague Drones, while not having to waste your time chasing them down. That lets salvo bikes stay on the move, where their launchers can deal the most damage and hit important tanks and flyers with their lances when it counts.

Really, it's just an extra profile for them to have when not nuking tanks. Gift horses and all that.
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Re: Regarding the Adeptus Custodes and the Flakburst missiles...

Post by Aclys » Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:59 am

A fair point, while eldar jetbikes with their T4 probably die just fine to hurrycanes, and plague drones with their demon save wont really care about the -1 ap on the salvo launcher, it does have some use against flying multi-wound, multi-unit targets with modest or weak armor and toughness in the 5-7 range.

I suppose my main gripe really is that its such a niche mode, I'd rather take 2-5 points off of the weapon if they could leave the flakburst missiles in the garage and only bring the melta ones. In such an elite-focused army, a tool you (almost) never use is a waste of ever so precious points after all.

That said I suppose one could always argue that the salvo launcher is, melta missiles alone, the custodes equivalent to a lascannon, having a similair role and points cost while also comming with a bonus mode. Personally I would have prefered some kind of concussion frag missile, just the flak without the +1 vs fliers, -1 vs everything else.. and maybe a -2 ap.

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Re: Regarding the Adeptus Custodes and the Flakburst missiles...

Post by Marit Lage » Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:19 am

If be surprised if the launcher stayed 25 points during the next points update, as it's expensive for the range and price you pay for them in an army starved from anti-tank weaponry aside from punching. It'll probably get reduced to 15-20 points, and then either bikes will be increased to 95-105 base or the rest of the army will drop about 5 points per model (doubtful).
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Re: Regarding the Adeptus Custodes and the Flakburst missiles...

Post by mrazek22 » Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:00 am

This brings up an interesting theory I was discussing with my friends about the codex's. I think the weapon load outs are literally done by committee, and no one in the committee has any idea what the committee that is building the actual unit is doing. What is the point of 90% of the weaponry in the Astra Militarum? You're just gonna take Plasma. What is the point of creating the grenade gloves on the Ogryns, or the Volley guns on Scions, or flamers on Marines? They literally all were made with zero idea as to the purpose of the units they were arming.

Why do we have primarily melee units with ranged weapons, or heavy ranged units with melee weapons? WHO'S IDEA WAS IT TO GIVE THE GUARD SGT's POWER FISTS? WHO LET STEVIE WONDER INTO THE CODEX WRITING DEPARTMENT?

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Re: Regarding the Adeptus Custodes and the Flakburst missiles...

Post by Marit Lage » Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:16 pm

mrazek22 wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:00 am
This brings up an interesting theory I was discussing with my friends about the codex's. I think the weapon load outs are literally done by committee, and no one in the committee has any idea what the committee that is building the actual unit is doing. What is the point of 90% of the weaponry in the Astra Militarum? You're just gonna take Plasma. What is the point of creating the grenade gloves on the Ogryns, or the Volley guns on Scions, or flamers on Marines? They literally all were made with zero idea as to the purpose of the units they were arming.

Why do we have primarily melee units with ranged weapons, or heavy ranged units with melee weapons? WHO'S IDEA WAS IT TO GIVE THE GUARD SGT's POWER FISTS? WHO LET STEVIE WONDER INTO THE CODEX WRITING DEPARTMENT?
I think you're overthinking things there. Weapons have a role, even the bad ones.
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Re: Regarding the Adeptus Custodes and the Flakburst missiles...

Post by Aclys » Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:32 pm

The reason you (sometimes) want a powerfist in an imperial guard squad is that you basically have a dude with 9 abblative wounds able to dish out 2 attacks at str 6, ap -3, for d3 damage. While this is certainly not as impressive as the slaughtermancers that lead units in dedicated close combat squads, not to mention the squadmembers of such units in general... It can serve as a nasty suprise or last ditch effort to counter having a single heavily armored melee unit eating the entire squad and taking no damage in return.

Flamers on Space marines can be quite useful, they auto-hit, d6 such auto hits will usually be more than the 2 shots a rapid fire bolter will deal out.

Likewise, plasma's great if you need to deal with heavy infantry, but against say, orks, eldar/deldar in particular or harlequins.. or demons, the high strength and ap arent that big an advantage over some of the other options. A flamer here can be a nice way to discourage chargers plus its a str 4 weapon over the lasfire you usually resort to, sniper rifles to help snipe enemy characters... lots of options for when youre not banking on having space marines to fry.

Plus, there is of course the fact that these weapons were in the last editions and coudlnt simply be written off. As for making them more compeditive to the plasma gun... eh, noone used it last edition cause it was too expensive.. this edition its sort of cheap, but its still not the One gun to rule them all of the special class, not Quite.

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Re: Regarding the Adeptus Custodes and the Flakburst missiles...

Post by Signet-Powers » Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:22 pm

Those Powerfists are Strength 8 with Catachans btw. So that's wounding those Marines on a 2+.

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Re: Regarding the Adeptus Custodes and the Flakburst missiles...

Post by mrazek22 » Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:42 pm

So, my guard SGT had a chain sword and a las pistol in the last game I played, and all my shots were gone, except for the lowly laspistol. St3, 1 shot, 1 damage. Guess which weapon ended their Aspiring Champion's reign of terror? He was SOOOOO PISSED.

I will give you that every weapon has a purpose, but if you use the big three correctly, you'll never need the other 4+. For me it's Plasma, Launchers, and Las, in that order. Unless there is an attached gun team, in which case they are eating a steady diet of Bolter Rounds and AC rounds...

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Re: Regarding the Adeptus Custodes and the Flakburst missiles...

Post by Marit Lage » Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:45 am

mrazek22 wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:42 pm
I will give you that every weapon has a purpose, but if you use the big three correctly, you'll never need the other 4+. For me it's Plasma, Launchers, and Las, in that order. Unless there is an attached gun team, in which case they are eating a steady diet of Bolter Rounds and AC rounds...
Personally, I've found that men carry the day, not the weapons they hold. Chaos Cultists are some of the most reliable troops I've ever had the pleasure of using, especially this edition (provided they have a little support). Honestly, I sometimes forget to shoot the weapons they have, because the bodies they have are the point, not their weaponry. The same is true for a lot of armies (I'd wager all of them, really).
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Re: Regarding the Adeptus Custodes and the Flakburst missiles...

Post by Ronin » Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:36 pm

Although, with tournaments putting a time limit and introducing chess clocks, running horde reliably might become trickier if more players are thinking about finding a balance of models to time ratio. Of course, if you have the whole day and it's just a casual game, go nuts.

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