Chapter tactics - initial thoughts?

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Chapter tactics - initial thoughts?

Post by skipgiblets » Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:57 am

What does everything think of the preview of the Ultramarine tactics of falling back and shooting? I am an SM player so I like it. However, I'm worried it is the start of a power creep that ruined 7th for me. Time will tell.
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Re: Chapter tactics - initial thoughts?

Post by General-Kroll » Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:05 am

I think any hope that 8th edition wouldn't suffer from power creep is pretty much gone now. Though we don't know the context within which this rule is built, it seems it's just a free bonus for each chapter, it's not a stratagem, which is what I was hoping chapter tactics would consist of. It's just something that applies to all <Ultramarine> units.

What's more it doesn't really fit imo. Everything that's got the ability to shoot after falling back has been either very very agile or fast, like Harlequins, or had the ability to fly. Having discipline shouldn't make it any easier to get yourself out of a life or death combat and still be able to act relatively normally.

This would have fit better with White Scars imo. Ultramarines should have had something like supporting fire.

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Re: Chapter tactics - initial thoughts?

Post by Dheiti » Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:18 am

For me if they were making it a 'free' ability, it needs to be done carefully. Not OP like this seems. My ideas would be:

Ultramarines - one battle round per game, all Ultramarines reroll 1's in all to hits

Scars - one turn per game all bikes/fly units move additional 2D3 inches with no penalty to shooting (except heavy still suffer -1 as per norm)

Fists - one battle round per game, all Imperial Fists reroll All to hits with Bolter weapons

This sort of thing isn't game breaking but still adds flavour and variety with the chapters.
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Re: Chapter tactics - initial thoughts?

Post by Ronin » Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:42 am

https://www.warhammer-community.com/201 ... ge-post-2/

Ultramarines will be able to fall back and shoot at -1BS and they all get +1 leadership.

My thoughts on CT's are there needs to be a small points tax so that they're balanced out with people who are stuck with the indexes and you can only unlock these CT's if you run a mono detachment of ultramarines so no mixing in other imperial factions. I'm hoping that they go with the Age of Sigmar model with these codexes.

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Re: Chapter tactics - initial thoughts?

Post by Signet-Powers » Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:50 am

Guess I'll never be getting into assault with an Ultramarines player then :wink: .

Nah but seriously, I wouldn't say it's too overpowered but I'm thinking from a shooty player perspective. I imagine it certainly will be a much bigger issue for Tyranid and Ork players, which only makes me think they didn't think it through or didn't care.

I suppose there is the question of how big an issue is a BS3+ boltgun on the fallback anyway? Not very. But then I think of things like Flamers and Meltas and that's when it starts becoming a bit concerning.

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Re: Chapter tactics - initial thoughts?

Post by Kovlovsky » Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:33 am

I don't think that's OP. It gives personality to your army and some nice advantages in game. And this bonus is mostly useful against close combat armies. Against a shooty army you only get the +1 Ld that will be useful. It's like how the DA used to overwatch at BS2 or 3 depending of the detachment used. It could ruin the day of a Khorne Daemon army, but it was almost useless when I was playing my TS against my friend's DA since I rarely had nore than one or two dedicated CC unit. I'm finr with it being free too. Otherwise it's like how we used to pay for Veterans of the Long War and would make it a tax in circumstances where it did nothing. And they said earlier that Legions, Craftworlds, Hive Fleets, Ork Clans, etc would have similar bonuses. I'm playing 40k for fluffy flavour, not for getting a tight competition friendly ruleset. Otherwise I would play Warmachines. So I'm perfectly fine with it as long as other armies get something similar too. If it remains a Space Marines privilege, they should pay points for it. If that kind of bonus is also given to other armies, then I'm fine with it being free.
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Re: Chapter tactics - initial thoughts?

Post by ln1000000 » Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:18 am

I'm less confident than most in this thread.
GW just showed us the Power Creep is alive and well.
Assault, once again, is hindered in favor of shooting.
Ultramarines remain the "GOTO" for any competitive space marine player.
I'm expecting the other codex chapter tactics to be nowhere near as strong as this one.

A little miffed about this, but, as always, I will take a step back and watch the meta play out, old man ln1000000 can overreact sometimes about his favourite things.
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Re: Chapter tactics - initial thoughts?

Post by Ronin » Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:29 am

Signet-Powers wrote:
Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:50 am
Guess I'll never be getting into assault with an Ultramarines player then :wink: .

Nah but seriously, I wouldn't say it's too overpowered but I'm thinking from a shooty player perspective. I imagine it certainly will be a much bigger issue for Tyranid and Ork players, which only makes me think they didn't think it through or didn't care.

I suppose there is the question of how big an issue is a BS3+ boltgun on the fallback anyway? Not very. But then I think of things like Flamers and Meltas and that's when it starts becoming a bit concerning.
Compared to an army that can't shoot back at all after falling back, I think it's pretty huge. Of course, it doesn't matter as much for armies that have primarily have the Fly keyword. Shame chapter tactics still doesn't apply to vehicles except the dreadnought. Why?

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Re: Chapter tactics - initial thoughts?

Post by MarkOfNotch » Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:36 pm

ln1000000 wrote:
Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:18 am
I'm less confident than most in this thread.
GW just showed us the Power Creep is alive and well.
Assault, once again, is hindered in favor of shooting.
Ultramarines remain the "GOTO" for any competitive space marine player.
I'm expecting the other codex chapter tactics to be nowhere near as strong as this one.

A little miffed about this, but, as always, I will take a step back and watch the meta play out, old man ln1000000 can overreact sometimes about his favourite things.
Well, we may see other Chapter Tactics that favour melee. In fact I strongly expect we will. We will wait and see about which are the best. It's likely that Iron Hands, for instance, will get more resilience. Which is always good.
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Re: Chapter tactics - initial thoughts?

Post by Kovlovsky » Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:20 pm

Honestly, I don't think it's not as big a deal than some people pretend. Take Khorne Berserkers by example. They make their attacks two times at S5 (if you keep chain swords, it's 3 attacks each two times), so if you get your charge, it's a ton of hurt coming on the poor Ultrasmurf tactical squad. As long as your assault unit is beefy, there will be nothing left to fall back and shoot back.
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Re: Chapter tactics - initial thoughts?

Post by skipgiblets » Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:57 pm

I know for me the deal is really the question of what is going to come next. I haven't read any of the fluff (I love my D&D novels too much), but from all I've seen and played falling back and being able to shoot doesn't seem to be in line with the standard Ultramarine abilities.

Like it was said previously, all of the factions are going to get something similar to chapter tactics. In my mind the only way to keep it balanced would be for each faction to get the same tactics (or at the last option to take them), but that wouldn't feel very fluffy.

Of course we don't know what GW has planned next. I hope for sake of the hobby they listen to their customers.
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Re: Chapter tactics - initial thoughts?

Post by Plutarch » Fri Jul 14, 2017 3:20 pm

In my humble opinion, and let's be real here, you have a bunch of space marines get charged who have bolters but no ccw. I see no reason why they (ultramarines or any other space marine chapter) cannot disengage and fire at those that charged them. These are genetically enhanced and psycho indoctrinated super soldiers, who are at the pinnacle of gene manipulation as well as the definition of disciplined while under fire.

Secondly, compare it to the current Eldar "battle focus" where you can not only advance, but shoot as if you have moved regularly (aside from heavy weapons).

Personally, I see nothing wrong with this. Oh the other hand, I really want to see all the armies stay mostly balanced or as balanced as can be.

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Re: Chapter tactics - initial thoughts?

Post by abf36 » Fri Jul 14, 2017 3:25 pm

That tactic doesn't sound very Ultramariney to me, more like an Imperial Fists defensive style.
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Re: Chapter tactics - initial thoughts?

Post by Signet-Powers » Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:04 am

ln1000000 wrote:
Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:18 am
I'm less confident than most in this thread.
GW just showed us the Power Creep is alive and well.
I was just trying to be more positive than I usually am after people complained in the another thread that everyone's being too negative about this edition. The more I think about this chapter tactic the worse it gets actually.
Ronin wrote: Compared to an army that can't shoot back at all after falling back, I think it's pretty huge. Of course, it doesn't matter as much for armies that have primarily have the Fly keyword. Shame chapter tactics still doesn't apply to vehicles except the dreadnought. Why?
Doesn't Guilleman and Sicarius improve Leadership and shooting of other units as well? I think I remember reading Guilleman allows re-rolls if he's close and Sicarius allows you to hit first or something. That could really snowball out of control.

And that dreadnaught is hideous, so I imagine it gets better rules to encourage people to buy it.
Kovlovsky wrote:
Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:20 pm
Honestly, I don't think it's not as big a deal than some people pretend. Take Khorne Berserkers by example. They make their attacks two times at S5 (if you keep chain swords, it's 3 attacks each two times), so if you get your charge, it's a ton of hurt coming on the poor Ultrasmurf tactical squad. As long as your assault unit is beefy, there will be nothing left to fall back and shoot back.
A rule like that can quickly get very out of hand if a player knows what they're doing. Tacs won't see much of an improvement but they can still easily render entire units unable to fight back for 2 turns and what about Dreads, Assault Marines and Termies?

I really don't like this precident of factions having army wide special rules allowing their units to ignore major game balance rules with no real drawback. An aggresive Ultramarine list could see huge portions of an opponents army unable to fight back with no consequence or weakness for doing so.

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Re: Chapter tactics - initial thoughts?

Post by Ronin » Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:38 am

In 5th edition, Ultramarine chapter was you could voluntarily fail a morale check and fall back. This basically made it harder for your opponent to charge you because you could ninja away and then counter charge on the following turn. It's to represent the fact that Ultramarines are smart enough to know when to move back and regroup if things become too overwhelming. This new variant seems to represent them not so much running with their tails between the legs, but they're doing an orderly and controlled retreat while still suppressing the enemy with fire.

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