Help! Sm army keeps getting tabled by csm and skitaari

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Litanyoffury
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Help! Sm army keeps getting tabled by csm and skitaari

Post by Litanyoffury » Fri Dec 16, 2016 5:37 pm

Hi all recently I have been having a lot of games with a friend who plays csm and skitaari (dark mechanicus) with varied game sizes but usually 1850 points and I keep getting tabled in turn 2 or 3 !! This has never happened ed to me before but I can't seem to get my head around doing his armies weak spots if he is playing games csm only he plays 4 units of 5 csm, even units of havoc s all with missiles 3 obliterators a heldrake 2 hellbrutes and 2 chaos sorcerers I can't remember the upgrades for most of the stuff however. When he plays skitaari he plays 40 vanguard 3 dunecrawlers a tech priest dominus a tech priest magus and a few other units I can't remember lol I play a terminator chapter master with relic blade, digital weapons and storm bolter, a level 2 librarian two ten man tactical squads with melta gun, vet sergeant and missile 2 5man terminator squads with assault cannons and two venerable dreadnoughts and any remaining ingredients points I vary between bikes and scouts I have real problems beating him or even managing to survive the game he is often tabling me with 7 vp to my 1 vp and I'm only getting one if I get a lucky first turn and get first blood, I usually deep strike the termies in to try and take his concentration of the rest of my force which has worked for me against most enemies but just not him :/ however it's starting to get boring plating against him now as I already know the result before the game begins his sorcerer always seems to end up rolling the same powers and pulls of vortex on me and then I usually fail the strength tests (damn you dice gods!) Any ideas or lists people can recommend are extremely welcome as is any criticism or advice. Thanks ks in advance guys :)
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Re: Help! Sm army keeps getting tabled by csm and skitaari

Post by Gamer-Guy » Fri Dec 16, 2016 10:05 pm

A couple questions before I can give some pointers: 1) can you post what exactly your list consists of? 2) can you post exactly what his CSM has in it? 3) is he playing skittari separate from his CSM, or as allies?

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Re: Help! Sm army keeps getting tabled by csm and skitaari

Post by Arnathos » Sat Dec 17, 2016 2:34 am

Grav cannon devastators in a drop pod, or centurions with grav weapons are a good start vs CSM, vs the Skitarii just get 2 thunderfire cannons. Thunderfire cannons do well against CSM as well usually. If psykers are giving you grief, either bring your own or a culexus assassin.

You may also want to consider a stormshield for your chapter master, or replacing him with a librarian.
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Re: Help! Sm army keeps getting tabled by csm and skitaari

Post by Litanyoffury » Sat Dec 17, 2016 12:35 pm

Thanks for the responses guys I change my list everytime at the moment I can tell you what units I have at my disposal and as for him he plays one or the other occasionally he allies a unit of csm and a sorcerer in woth his skitaari bit never the other way round I have:

3 units of ten tac squads with spares allowing all options

A unit of devs with missile launchers and one plasma cannon

2 rhinos a razorback and a drop pod

2 dreadnoughts and a venerable dreadnought (magnetised all weapons)

2 terminator squads

An assault squad (5men)

5 scouts with sniper rifles

5 scouts with cc weapons and sergeant with powerfist

A command squad with apothecary

3 librarians

3 bikes 2 with flamers

3 captains with various options and one unbuilt

A chaplain

A stern guard veteran squad unbuilt

I also use iron hands chap tactics if this helps guys :)
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Re: Help! Sm army keeps getting tabled by csm and skitaari

Post by Arnathos » Sat Dec 17, 2016 12:55 pm

Also, protip, in the future, buy razorbacks instead of rhino's, if you don't glue the back hatch you can switch between the 2 whenever you feel like doing so.

But you can't go wrong with a thunderfire cannon, just be sure to familliarize yourself with the rules for artillery and the way Tech marines work, and put it in some ruins you have just bolstered.
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Re: Help! Sm army keeps getting tabled by csm and skitaari

Post by Kovlovsky » Sat Dec 17, 2016 1:08 pm

What is your friend's battle strategy and what is yours? That can make a large difference in the outcomes. Also, you might want to try Maelstrom of War missions instead of just doing kill points. It favors mobility which might need you to buy some more transports, but it can allow a player that isn't going well in the killing part of the game to still win by fulfilling his objectives.
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Re: Help! Sm army keeps getting tabled by csm and skitaari

Post by Litanyoffury » Sat Dec 17, 2016 2:34 pm

Yes that's what he does with his sorcerer but as they were "dark mechanicus" it never even crossed my mind that he couldn't do that lol how naive of me that's why his skitaari are hard as nails all the time taking out so much with their skitaari special rules and such as well can't remember what they are called but they fire a lot of shots especially as he fields 40 of them lol. As for me I usually go for the jugular and go for the sorcerer if I can but usually he hides him in cover right on his table edge making it very difficult. I usually move my tac squads up slowly in a wide sweep leaving one to hold any objectives in my deployment zone the termies deep strike in if I'm lucky and tie up some of his units the chapter master usually gets killed as he tends to target him a lot on turn 1 however I'm thinking of changing him out for one like this

Chapter master
Artifice armour
Thunder hammer
Shield eternal

With my iron hands chapter tactics this will make him hard as nails to take down mea ingredients I can actually make use of his base 4 attacks in cc.

We usually play eternal war missions however we have been wanting to play some maelstrom for a while now.

Also does anyone recommend me dropping a terminator squad for a landraider and popping the chapter master and 5 termies inside so I can get him up the table more or maybe add some flyer support lol so many options that I know work in most situations just having real trouble with this guy.

The other problem is whenever I challenge a rule he declares he takes it seriously and gets defensive I'm a little more laid back as I just enjoy the hobby for fun but he so serious.

Thanks ks again guys.
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Re: Help! Sm army keeps getting tabled by csm and skitaari

Post by Litanyoffury » Sat Dec 17, 2016 3:48 pm

Thanks kroll!

The raptor with great sound dslr like a good option as does the librarian conclave, I've actually used the conclave before and it is a really great formation, yeah I'm not sure how he's going to take it but I think he'll have to beings as he plays on my table lol. It's not so bad when we play kill team just the bigger games. I'll keep you all posted on how I get on next time although it'll probably not be until the new year ..... which gives me please type of time to build and paid the new units ;)
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Re: Help! Sm army keeps getting tabled by csm and skitaari

Post by Kovlovsky » Sat Dec 17, 2016 3:52 pm

General-Kroll wrote: He's not going to be happy when you suddenly start applying the ally matrix to your games, but then he's technically been cheating you. They may be "Dark" Mechanicus, but I'm not aware of any rules that make them anything but Come the Apocalypse allies with Chaos. Someone else might though. Unless he can show you the codex, dataslate or white dwarf article, then sorry but there's a reason the ally matrix is there. It's to balance out the armies. And while 40k does have its balance issues, GW and FW clearly do try and balance things sometimes.
It's not surprising that you found no rule about it simply because there is none. No matter how fluffy the Dark Mechanicum is, it's currently only a label, a paint job and conversions that you throw on the Skitarii models. They are still Come the Apocalypse with all Chaos forces and therefore, you suffer all the disadvantages from it. If I wanted to play it fluffy and remove the ally chart rule for a game, I would ask the opponent first if he agrees. That's not something you can impose on others without talking to them. If you don't discuss it, it's called making a lie by omission and it's cheating, plain and simple. His friend hasn't be frank with the OP. The only other possibility is that he's unaware about the chart, but frankly, he should have been if he made such a mix of armies.
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Re: Help! Sm army keeps getting tabled by csm and skitaari

Post by Litanyoffury » Sat Dec 17, 2016 4:33 pm

He's now claiming he can use this when he plays the list as it's unbound and so not affected by the allies matrix ? I'm sure this is untrue but does anyone know if that's true?
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Re: Help! Sm army keeps getting tabled by csm and skitaari

Post by Kovlovsky » Sat Dec 17, 2016 4:46 pm

Litanyoffury wrote:He's now claiming he can use this when he plays the list as it's unbound and so not affected by the allies matrix ? I'm sure this is untrue but does anyone know if that's true?
No, unbound has no effect on the Ally Matrix whatsoever. It's told in bold characters at page 118 of the rule book under the Faction entry:
A unit's Faction applies regardless of how you choose your army [...]
And if you go back to pg. 116 and 117 about Choosing your Army, they give two ways of choosing your army: Unbound or Battle-Forged Armies. The only thing that Unbound allows is taking whatever units you want and ignoring detachments. An army to be Battle-Forged must have all its units taken inside detachments or formations while an Unbound army can take formations, but no detachment. But whatever you do, "A unit's Faction applies regardless of how you choose your army." That's it.
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40k : 3945 points of Thousand Sons
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