Chapter tactics - initial thoughts?

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Re: Chapter tactics - initial thoughts?

Post by Ronin » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:26 pm

Ultramarines better get something to make up for it, though like additional command points or amazing stratagems. I think we're going back to the 5th edition days where you need special characters and their abilities to make up for the weak chapter tactics they got.

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Re: Chapter tactics - initial thoughts?

Post by Signet-Powers » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:29 pm

It seems like these tactics just force your opponent to fight you in one single way rather than give you new ways to play. With Ultramarines your opponent can't get into close combat with anything. Now with Ravenguard, your opponent can't shoot at you from beyond charging range.

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Re: Chapter tactics - initial thoughts?

Post by Ronin » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:37 pm

I would have preferred it if they said RG with the FLY keyword gets -1 to hit, but making it every unit and dreadnoughts sounds excessive.

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Re: Chapter tactics - initial thoughts?

Post by Kovlovsky » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:39 pm

Signet-Powers wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:29 pm
It seems like these tactics just force your opponent to fight you in one single way rather than give you new ways to play. With Ultramarines your opponent can't get into close combat with anything. Now with Ravenguard, your opponent can't shoot at you from beyond charging range.
That's simply not true with Ultramarines. Everybody is able to retreat from a CC in the core rules. If you have to blame something for it, blame the BRB. Shooting after retreating from that CC isn't a big game changer. If your close combat unit is competent, there will be no more than 3 model left to retreat, they will shoot with a BS of a guardsmen after retreating for 6 inches and then in your next turn, you're gonna move to one inch of them and then charge again and kill what's left. Even if only the special weapons are left, at worst you will have lost 1 or 2 guys from that special rule compared to what you would have suffered normally. It might make a bit more of a difference if there is a huge melee in the middle of the map, but that's it. I'm really not impressed.

The Ravenguard tactics are WAY more powerful, especially that the 6th and 7th edition made us build armies around shooting. -1 to hit to all units firing at you at more than 12 inches is a huge number of additional misses. That is very powerful, maybe even OP. So, GW is better to start delivering for other armies too.
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Re: Chapter tactics - initial thoughts?

Post by General-Kroll » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:09 pm

Kovlovsky wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:24 pm
General-Kroll wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:14 pm
These are really fluffy rules for the Ravenguard, and as a RG player, it's exciting, but they sound way too powerful.
Agreed. It's much more powerful than the Ultramarines ones, but keep in mind that all armies will have those, so this will most probably compensate significantly.
The trouble is when the other armies get their boosts. It's a massive power creep that makes Space Marine's of all colour vastly superior to everyone else.

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Re: Chapter tactics - initial thoughts?

Post by Kovlovsky » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:45 pm

General-Kroll wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:09 pm
Kovlovsky wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:24 pm
General-Kroll wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:14 pm
These are really fluffy rules for the Ravenguard, and as a RG player, it's exciting, but they sound way too powerful.
Agreed. It's much more powerful than the Ultramarines ones, but keep in mind that all armies will have those, so this will most probably compensate significantly.
The trouble is when the other armies get their boosts. It's a massive power creep that makes Space Marine's of all colour vastly superior to everyone else.
They says that the CSMs are next and they want to release the first 10 codices before December. That probably means that CSMs are in early August and everything will start to drop pretty quickly. They only have 4 or 5 months to do it. And, we have all experienced this before in a way worst form. We can make it through. Maybe the fact CSMs were stuck with a very bad codices for like 4 years has made me more resilient to waiting.
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Re: Chapter tactics - initial thoughts?

Post by Signet-Powers » Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:38 am

Kovlovsky wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:39 pm
That's simply not true with Ultramarines. Everybody is able to retreat from a CC in the core rules. If you have to blame something for it, blame the BRB. Shooting after retreating from that CC isn't a big game changer. If your close combat unit is competent, there will be no more than 3 model left to retreat, they will shoot with a BS of a guardsmen after retreating for 6 inches and then in your next turn, you're gonna move to one inch of them and then charge again and kill what's left. Even if only the special weapons are left, at worst you will have lost 1 or 2 guys from that special rule compared to what you would have suffered normally. It might make a bit more of a difference if there is a huge melee in the middle of the map, but that's it. I'm really not impressed.
Believe it or not, not every assault unit in the game is dedicated anti-MEQ. Being able to fall back and rapid fire plasma or use a flamer, even at BS4+ is a serious advantage.

It's one of the things that's made Guard arguably one of the most powerful armies in the game now. If you charge a Guard squad and don't instantly wipe it you're doing nothing other than opening yourself up for a LOT of return fire, not just from that squad but from the other 5 or so squads and the vehicles as well.

You have to have that "huge melee in the middle of the map", piecemeal assault is suicide. You have to hit all the infantry at once and kill them all to make a difference, or you've just wasted your assault units. And Marines are harder to kill than Guardsmen.

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Re: Chapter tactics - initial thoughts?

Post by mmsolo » Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:29 am

No need ultramarines rules to have that kind of regular threat : wolf guard jump pack combi plasma, storm shield, chainsword. That rule just make them try to be as good. So it exist event without thoses rules. Nothing realy change.

One the other hand, raven guard stormraven... gonna be hard to hit ! with -2 , fast, power of the machine spirit, fly...

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Re: Chapter tactics - initial thoughts?

Post by Ronin » Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:32 am

Chapter tactics only applies to infantry, bikes, and dreadnoughts so luckily we won't be seeing any -2 to hit on Stormraven because they're vehicles.

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Re: Chapter tactics - initial thoughts?

Post by mmsolo » Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:27 am

Fair point!

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Re: Chapter tactics - initial thoughts?

Post by Koonitz » Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:09 am

Ronin wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:32 am
Chapter tactics only applies to infantry, bikes, and dreadnoughts so luckily we won't be seeing any -2 to hit on Stormraven because they're vehicles.
Waitin' for the Iron Hands "oh, and our vehicles, too!" to get the salty flowing from everyone else, again.

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Re: Chapter tactics - initial thoughts?

Post by Driedguide42 » Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:45 am

Koonitz wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:09 am
Ronin wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:32 am
Chapter tactics only applies to infantry, bikes, and dreadnoughts so luckily we won't be seeing any -2 to hit on Stormraven because they're vehicles.
Waitin' for the Iron Hands "oh, and our vehicles, too!" to get the salty flowing from everyone else, again.
Which is balanced out by the fact that we Iron Hands get no special characters.
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Re: Chapter tactics - initial thoughts?

Post by Ronin » Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:00 pm

Because Iron Hands bike star was so balanced in 7th. ;)

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Re: Chapter tactics - initial thoughts?

Post by Kovlovsky » Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:25 pm

Ronin wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:00 pm
Because Iron Hands bike star was so balanced in 7th. ;)
It was the very incarnation of fairplay and balance. If an abstract principle has ever been perfectly incarnated in the real world, it was by the Iron Hand bike star in the 7th edition of Warhammer 40,000. :P
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Re: Chapter tactics - initial thoughts?

Post by mmsolo » Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:58 pm

Whit scars tactic out.

+2 to any advance / able to charge after falling back.

Stratagem : bikes can advance + shoot + charge the same turn

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