Pre-Alpha Project - Squad Types

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Kris Knives
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Pre-Alpha Project - Squad Types

Post by Kris Knives » Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:31 pm

Hey all,

This is kind of a spin off of the force organization discussion. As I was reading over that thread I realized there was an element we hadn't considered.

Namely what sort of squad types should we include?

Warhammer 40k uses HQ, Troops, Elites, Heavy Support an Fast Attack. There is no reason we couldn't use that same categories but also no reason we need to follow it. Seems like we could easily have different or more options then that.

I haven't given this a lot of thought and no one else has brought it up yet so I thought I'd just open it to discussion here.
Last edited by Kris Knives on Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Squad Types

Post by Tmb » Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:58 pm

Well you could just have

Commanders, Sub Commanders, Solos, Light Infantry, Heavy Units.
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Re: Squad Types

Post by Kris Knives » Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:44 am

Tmb wrote:Well you could just have

Commanders, Sub Commanders, Solos, Light Infantry, Heavy Units.
Hmmmm not bad but I was hopping to a bit more. After thinking things over here are a few suggestions I came up with. I'm thinking we have three super types; Solos who obviously are single independent units, Operatives which are smaller 1-4 special units and Squads which are your typical 3-10 units.

Example:

Solos
Commanders/Sub-Commander
Monstrous Units
Support Vehicle

Operatives
Scouts
Snipers
Assassins

Squads
Troop Squads
Heavy Weapons
Heavy Support

Well at least that is the general direction I was thinking. The specifics probably still need a bit of work.

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Re: Pre-Alpha Project - Squad Types

Post by Wiouds » Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:44 am

We can not make up classes until he make a good number of squad.

First you do not want to limited the creatures that squad must be only heavy weapon, fast attacker, support, etc.

You can not classify thinks objects until you have objects to work with.

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Re: Pre-Alpha Project - Squad Types

Post by Kris Knives » Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:04 am

We can actually.

The pre-alpha project aims to fill in any holes in the rules with temp stuff until we hear from Matt. I'm hoping, since he said he would try to post in here more, that we'll get some input into that soon but until then we're just moving forward. Shot in the dark rules such as these are just placeholder rules so we can do a larger play test and turn that play test data over to Matt.

Matt will no doubt make his own Squad Types, CC rules etc. etc. and we're trying to use Matt's official notes where ever we can but until then we're just going to make something functional 'cause otherwise this project would be dead in the water.

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Re: Pre-Alpha Project - Squad Types

Post by Wiouds » Fri Jan 06, 2012 2:26 pm

My point is that we did not know what squads will work. The classes are base of the type of squads that will work for the game. How can we make classes if we do not have information that we must have to make them.

Second right now we should not be trying to limit what type of squads are going to be created.

We are not making Warhammer 40k or any other game so we can use them for ideal but coping them will be bad.

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Re: Pre-Alpha Project - Squad Types

Post by Kris Knives » Fri Jan 06, 2012 2:47 pm

Wiouds wrote:My point is that we did not know what squads will work.
Well then I do not get your point. There is a lot of stuff we don't know will work or not. That is the whole point here. Try a bunch of stuff to get some useful game data about what worked and what didn't, which is really all we can do until Matt re-engages.
Wiouds wrote:The classes are base of the type of squads that will work for the game. How can we make classes if we do not have information that we must have to make them.
Wiouds, this is exactly how you find out what will work. You make up what you think might work and be tactical, fun etc. etc. then you test it out. We make them based on speculation.
Wiouds wrote:Second right now we should not be trying to limit what type of squads are going to be created.
Why would creating some guidelines be any sort of limitation? This is a starting point. If tomorrow someone say "hey I got a great idea for a new class of units called Dragoons" why wouldn't we just add that in? Nothing is set in stone unless it comes from Matt.
Wiouds wrote:We are not making Warhammer 40k or any other game so we can use them for ideal but coping them will be bad.
Who is suggesting we copy 40k? I just used it as a spring board for conversation as that is what most people are familiar with. If you'll note my own suggestion was very different as was TMB's.

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Re: Pre-Alpha Project - Squad Types

Post by Wiouds » Fri Jan 06, 2012 5:11 pm

My point is that we can not create classes until we come up with units that work. Classes will be just a grouping of different number squads that have similar attributes. We can not make these classes will be until we know what these attributes will be. We will not know these attributes until we start make and testing different squads.

For all we know none of the classes you say we should have will work.

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Re: Pre-Alpha Project - Squad Types

Post by Kris Knives » Fri Jan 06, 2012 5:33 pm

Wiouds wrote:My point is that we can not create classes until we come up with units that work. Classes will be just a grouping of different number squads that have similar attributes. We can not make these classes will be until we know what these attributes will be. We will not know these attributes until we start make and testing different squads.

For all we know none of the classes you say we should have will work.
Wait, wait, wait....so you are telling me you are 100% certain that we won't make a single unit the is a solo/monstrous unit and that simply having that squad type is keeping you from creating units? 'Cause I have to tell you I'm 100% sure we will, and that the common attribute for them will be they are solo and monstrous. So how does that keep us from creating class units? In fact now it focuses us toward making solo-monstrous units.

And how does that stop you from making something I didn't think of? If you create a unit that doesn't fit into any category like say a swam of nanobots again we can just create a new squad type for that or modify an old one.

But lets say you are right, the group decides to take all my suggestions verbatim but suddenly when they start making units they find my set up doesn't work. So then we will just make changes, scrap all my ideas and replace them with something that works. That sort of thing happens in development all the time and it isn't a bad thing.

If you are really worried about it why not trying making some suggestions of your own or try and find ways to improve the existing ideas instead of just trying to throw up road blocks?

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Re: Pre-Alpha Project - Squad Types

Post by evilgreenthing » Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:17 am

Hmm, your Origional grouping seem okay, however I think that Ther should be a seperate class for Heavies, as I think that they would function, and have a role very different to the average solo. I also feel that commanders should be a special sub class or a unique class altogather, as they would have additional rules that pretain only to them
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Re: Pre-Alpha Project - Squad Types

Post by Wiouds » Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:45 am

After making a few different type of squad and change only some parts of a squad, I found that a squad can easily change which roll they fall into.

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Re: Pre-Alpha Project - Squad Types

Post by Cow » Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:01 am

Can we entertain the idea of having no defined types of unit?

Maybe just put a cap on particularly heroic class units. Everything else will be balanced by points.

If I want to shell out extra points by equiping all of my X'Lanthos Elite with an anti-grav harness so they can hover over the battlefield, I can do that. Just at the cost of not putting much else in my list. Especially if my oponent has really good aim, then I've wasted my points on a task for of sitting ducks!
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Re: Pre-Alpha Project - Squad Types

Post by Kris Knives » Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:23 am

Cow wrote:Can we entertain the idea of having no defined types of unit?

Maybe just put a cap on particularly heroic class units. Everything else will be balanced by points.

If I want to shell out extra points by equiping all of my X'Lanthos Elite with an anti-grav harness so they can hover over the battlefield, I can do that. Just at the cost of not putting much else in my list. Especially if my oponent has really good aim, then I've wasted my points on a task for of sitting ducks!
Until Matt starts closing off design any idea is a legitimate one, the question is how do you over come all the issues of a pure point system?

Here is the core problem: Games like these are most fun when people bring a diverse force however it is often strategic to load heavily into less diverse force then is fun. Using some sort of counter point other then simply points open up our design options and allows us to try things more freely. In a pure or mostly pure points system one or two unbalanced unit can wreak a disproportionaly huge amount of game play. Not impossible of course, but very difficult with a high potential for failure.

In your scenario you admit by putting all your eggs in one basket, your opponent might have won before they even fire the first shot and that is one the factors we should be trying to avoid.

My solution is: "go with what we know works" which admittedly is kind of lame but effective. If you've got a different solution or a really unique idea on how we could make this all work lets explore it or at the very least brainstorm on it! Maybe there is a better way and I'm just not seeing it right now.

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Re: Pre-Alpha Project - Squad Types

Post by Wiouds » Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:27 am

After playing around with the combat system and change just some of the soldier squad by some minor things. I found that during game play these changes to the same type of squad has a noticeable change to how the squad fight.

Also I break the squad into three main types:
Solo, Small Squad, and Larger Squad

Commander can be added to any one of the squads type.

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Re: Pre-Alpha Project - Squad Types

Post by Kris Knives » Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:41 am

Wiouds wrote:After playing around with the combat system and change just some of the soldier squad by some minor things. I found that during game play these changes to the same type of squad has a noticeable change to how the squad fight.

Also I break the squad into three main types:
Solo, Small Squad, and Larger Squad

Commander can be added to any one of the squads type.
Question: How did you define a small squad for a large squad? That doesn't actually seem to add any force organization if the same sort of troops can be put into both small and large squads.

Forgive me if I'm reading you wrong, but I'm getting the impression your implying that giving squads points options take care of any force organization options. If that is indeed what you saying while I agree that giving squad customization options can really make the modular and that is a good thing and we should try to get a lot of that in the game; I feel I should point out that isn't really what the issue is. The issue is: what keeps me from just taking all one or two units with all the same optimized options resulting in a very dull game?

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