Pre-Alpha Project - Stats

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Cow
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Re: Pre-Alpha Project - Stats

Post by Cow » Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:17 am

So Defense is a little more like Evasion. Not that troops are Matrix-dodging bullets, but simply their maneovre tactics and use of cover and camoflauge are making it harder for enemies to shoot at.

Is this a proper definition of the so called Defense skill?
I always wondered.

Ya, the stats seem okay to me. But a Potential Energy skill seems like it'd only come into play by Potents (or whatever we are calling wizards in this game) For most troops this stat will be null? Or will they have some use for it?

As for Pre-Alpha, I suggest leave it out. If there is any spell that targets something at range, whether an attack or an effect or a buff, use the shooting skill. The guy's gotta aim, right?



Also, I recall that Matt's playtest example used pistols as strength 1 and armour at some number I forgot. This was made so it was a 4+ To-Kill roll or something. If a pistol is strength 1, what strengths are sticks and stones? I suggest we swtich those numbers up a bit so that there is a bit more room for a range of weapon strengths. This should make the current setup all wonky. At least I don't think so....
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Re: Pre-Alpha Project - Stats

Post by Kris Knives » Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:17 am

I think most units would have some sort of DP skill which will be used in contests vs DP attacks.

Just a difference of vision here perhaps but I see a lot of units having a DP power, like say using a DP powered jump pack, not just the "mage" type units using DP to rain down rocks from the sky or something like that. So I think for most factions the DP stat would see some use but that is something of an assumption on my part.

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Re: Pre-Alpha Project - Stats

Post by evilgreenthing » Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:01 am

I completely agree. DP should be the main power source for alot of things, such as some guns, maybe melee weapons ect.
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Re: Pre-Alpha Project - Stats

Post by Wiouds » Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:13 am

Does DP need their own stats? They could work off the other stats just fine.

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Re: Pre-Alpha Project - Stats

Post by Kris Knives » Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:30 am

Wiouds wrote:Does DP need their own stats? They could work off the other stats just fine.
Need is pretty subjective word. We don't need a shooting skill and a melee skill after all one could work just fine but there are benefits in having two.

I prefer to ask: Does the DP stat add something to the game we couldn't get with an existing stat?

Answer: Yes. With a DP stat we have a good tool for DP vs DP conflict, controlling DP power, shaping DP heavy factions and so on and so forth, with a very minimal cost in terms of adding to the game complexity.

I think you would loose a lot by having DP run off existing stats like shooting strength for all DP attack. A unit might have advanced DP manipulation after all at the cost of being a lousy shot.

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Re: Pre-Alpha Project - Stats

Post by Wiouds » Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:47 pm

There should be a squad size limit for the stats.

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Re: Pre-Alpha Project - Stats

Post by Kris Knives » Thu Jan 26, 2012 1:00 pm

How do you mean? Could you explain a little bit more? Do you mean squad limit should be a state along with things like Shooting skill?

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Re: Pre-Alpha Project - Stats

Post by Cow » Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:45 pm

Kris Knives wrote:I think most units would have some sort of DP skill which will be used in contests vs DP attacks.

Just a difference of vision here perhaps but I see a lot of units having a DP power, like say using a DP powered jump pack, not just the "mage" type units using DP to rain down rocks from the sky or something like that. So I think for most factions the DP stat would see some use but that is something of an assumption on my part.

Okay, that DOES sound good. But for me, I would prefer a good description of what a Potential Energy Manipulation SKill is. Like are these powers more like interfacing with devices? Its been a while, but the DPDD's seemed to say that using these powers simply requires pieces of equipment that do the Energy Manipulating. A gun that injects (through the use of this technology) extra kinetic energy into a bullet to propell it at extreme speeds would still be just a gun. So I would need to know how some other skill will come into play in this example.
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Re: Pre-Alpha Project - Stats

Post by Kris Knives » Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:33 pm

Cow wrote:Okay, that DOES sound good. But for me, I would prefer a good description of what a Potential Energy Manipulation SKill is. Like are these powers more like interfacing with devices? Its been a while, but the DPDD's seemed to say that using these powers simply requires pieces of equipment that do the Energy Manipulating. A gun that injects (through the use of this technology) extra kinetic energy into a bullet to propell it at extreme speeds would still be just a gun. So I would need to know how some other skill will come into play in this example.
Okay, no problem. Lets take your guy with a gun but lets assume we've got a sniper with a sniper rifle to allow it to fire through a vehicle for the sake of this example since I think given how difficult is it to get dark matter you wouldn't want to waste it trying to pack DP tech into a minigun or a hand gun, you want to make sure you are getting bang for you dark matter.

The sniper needs to use DP to cancel negate gravity and limit friction on the bullet so it travels at optimal speeds as it would in space giving it even better then point blank firing power. The problem is, that is a complicated proposition. Those factors can subtly vary and if you over do it, you'll actually end up interfering with your shot, you need to get it just right under chaotic field conditions. So prior to taking the shot on the vehicle the sniper must first attempt to ascertain the field conditions with his equipment (Which will obviously be easier for those with superior technology like the X'lanthos who are supposed to have better DP) and form a DP vacuum corridor for their bullet to travel down unhindered by the natural forces.

Imagine it like this: DP is much like target lock on a jet. The computer will do all the work once you get target locked sending a missile seeking the target, but it is up the human pilot to achieve target lock. That is essentially the same thing here. The gun with the DP gun needs to get a lock before they the can activate their DP ability.

Taking in the next step, lets assume some X'lanthos is trying to make a human implode using DP. When he gets target lock and start manipulating the energy around the human, in response the human pulses his own DP technology in an attempt to disrupt what is happening, following the jet example it is like firing flairs. If they succeed they confused the X'lanthos sensors and target lock was lost, if they failed the X'lanthos managed to keep target lock and the human implodes as the laws of physics suddenly seems to change around them. Anyone without a DP stat lacks any sort of dark matter technology and thusly has no capacity to disrupt it when it is deployed against them.

So yes just like with a gun, the tool is doing a lot of the work; but a skilled operator is still needed in the heat of battle to properly deploy that technology at the right place, at the right time and react to things happening around them to ensure success. Now while you might say, well the sniper was already aiming at the guy, how hard could it be? I'd suggest is the same way flying a helicopter and flying a jet are two different things, just cause you can pilot one doesn't make you an expert on the other.

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Re: Pre-Alpha Project - Stats

Post by Wiouds » Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:07 pm

For the limit of squad size I am talking about how large or small a squad

The intended size of a squad have a huge affect on the fighter stats and the gear and abilities the squad can use.

If we have a fighter that is intended to be used squads size of 3 so they get some thing like 2 HP. Then a player make a squad of something like 10 of them. This could break the game.

As for why the DP need its own stat. Let say that there is a DP that is a To area power. We will already have rules for to area. No not only do we need to see if the DP power works but where the To area power hits also need to be added in. The question comes up does the Squad's area stats should also be added will come up.

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Re: Pre-Alpha Project - Stats

Post by Kris Knives » Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:25 pm

Wiouds wrote:For the limit of squad size I am talking about how large or small a squad

The intended size of a squad have a huge affect on the fighter stats and the gear and abilities the squad can use.

If we have a fighter that is intended to be used squads size of 3 so they get some thing like 2 HP. Then a player make a squad of something like 10 of them. This could break the game.
That only works if we assume squads are always made up of the same unit and I don't think we want that. How would a squad work if I wanted to add say a shock trooper with Limit 2 along with a Jump Trooper limit 5? Would I just be limited to the lowest stat in the squad? Seems like it could work, but I'm not convinced it would be the best way to handle it.

I personally prefer something more a kin to say you purchase squad lots and each squad his its own limits.

So for example I buy a Scout squad for 50 points and it has a limit of 5 positions. Now I can add any 5 units with the scout type of my choice to the squad and spend further points to customize them like say upgrading one slot to an elite scout or giving them assault weapons.

That would probably still need a little work but you get the idea.
Wiouds wrote:As for why the DP need its own stat. Let say that there is a DP that is a To area power. We will already have rules for to area. No not only do we need to see if the DP power works but where the To area power hits also need to be added in. The question comes up does the Squad's area stats should also be added will come up.
I'm failing to see what the issue is. What area stat? We've never discussed an area stat. You'll need to explain that one.

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Re: Pre-Alpha Project - Stats

Post by LLeRRoux » Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:48 pm

Kris Knives wrote: That only works if we assume squads are always made up of the same unit and I don't think we want that. How would a squad work if I wanted to add say a shock trooper with Limit 2 along with a Jump Trooper limit 5? Would I just be limited to the lowest stat in the squad? Seems like it could work, but I'm not convinced it would be the best way to handle it.

I personally prefer something more a kin to say you purchase squad lots and each squad his its own limits.

So for example I buy a Scout squad for 50 points and it has a limit of 5 positions. Now I can add any 5 units with the scout type of my choice to the squad and spend further points to customize them like say upgrading one slot to an elite scout or giving them assault weapons.
I believe Matt said he did want squads to be made up of just one type of unit. Unless there was a change of plan I'm unaware of, I think we should stick to that.

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Re: Pre-Alpha Project - Stats

Post by Kris Knives » Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:28 pm

LLeRRoux wrote:I believe Matt said he did want squads to be made up of just one type of unit. Unless there was a change of plan I'm unaware of, I think we should stick to that.
As far as I'm aware that was only for the test play not necessarily the entirety of the game. Given that this is a small scale skirmish game having homogenous squads isn't going to give you very many options on the board which I doubt is what Matt really wants but I could be mistake of course.

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Re: Pre-Alpha Project - Stats

Post by LLeRRoux » Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:09 pm

Ok, but since the shooting mechanic works with the entire squad having one dice result for number of hits rather than one per model, you woild end up complexifying the rules to allow squad member to be different. If you come up with a great way to implement that into the current rules, fine. But for now at least, I still think we should stick to identical quad members.

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Re: Pre-Alpha Project - Stats

Post by Wiouds » Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:59 pm

The system can only work if a all squad members are the same.

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