Pre-Alpha Project - Stats

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evilgreenthing
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Re: Pre-Alpha Project - Stats

Post by evilgreenthing » Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:16 pm

squad memebers shouldnt be a stat, they should be like points, where they are there, but not part of the stat block as you dont accually need them during the game
sincerely EGT

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Re: Pre-Alpha Project - Stats

Post by Kris Knives » Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:55 am

Wiouds wrote:The system can only work if a all squad members are the same.
That isn't true actually, the system simply requires all units of the same type to have the same core stats. You could have a wide variety of units with the same type in a squad all bring unique benefits to the group with no ill effect to the system.
evilgreenthing wrote:squad memebers shouldnt be a stat, they should be like points, where they are there, but not part of the stat block as you dont accually need them during the game
I tend to agree with EGT on this one.

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Re: Pre-Alpha Project - Stats

Post by Wiouds » Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:15 pm

Kris Knives wrote:
Wiouds wrote:The system can only work if a all squad members are the same.
That isn't true actually, the system simply requires all units of the same type to have the same core stats. You could have a wide variety of units with the same type in a squad all bring unique benefits to the group with no ill effect to the system.
That would make squad more complex than what is need if each squad member is not same. I can not think of a meaningful good reason to have it were squad member with different abilities, armor or weapons.

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Re: Pre-Alpha Project - Stats

Post by Kris Knives » Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:16 pm

Wiouds wrote:That would make squad more complex than what is need if each squad member is not same. I can not think of a meaningful good reason to have it were squad member with different abilities, armor or weapons.
1. Of course it would make things more complex then what is "needed". We're making a war game, they are complicated. If we stripped this down to the minimum possible rules we would be playing something like battleship. Having more then one type of cover is more then is "needed", having more then one faction is more then is "needed", having more then one units is more than is "needed". Minimal is in no way superior or optimal all the time in war game, complexity is a factor you should consider of course, but it doesn't automatically trump other elements like "enjoyable" or "fun".

I think it would better to focus the conversation on what a rule is adding to or taking away from the game as well as any flaws (such as conflicts with other rules) an idea has as opposed to "needed". Needed in this context is a highly dubious term.

2. Now if you are saying "I think the cons might out way the pros" I disagree but understand; However if you honestly can't see how being able to customize your squads with different options and giving the opponent the opportunity to tactically eliminate those options with things like a well placed sniper shot could benefit the game than I think we just have totally incomparable views of the game.

However nonetheless I'll try to explain myself:

Lets say we want to give a squad the option to leave a bomb on the board to trap some piece of cover so the enemy can't take it after they move.

I'd argue that:

1. Not every solider should be a demolition expert or carry those sort of explosives.
2. It makes no sense for a demolition expert to be an independent unit
3. It shouldn't take a whole squad to set one bomb
4. A unit being a demolitions expert shouldn't prevent them from also shooting a gun and moving around the same as the rest of the squad.
5. It is desirable to allow people to attempt to tactically strike a squad to remove a troublesome unit like a medic or demolitions expert. We should want to allow people to us a scalpel sometimes instead of always resorting to the chainsaw.

As such it makes the most sense that a player be given the option to upgrade one of his scouts to a demolitions expert or demolition scout and bring that unique benefit and new option to the squad.

I'd further suggest that having all squads be 100% identical, 100% of the time offers no benefit beyond over simplification and makes the game far less tactical.

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Re: Pre-Alpha Project - Stats

Post by Wiouds » Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:47 pm

Here the problem with your ideal:
Let say you have a squad of six one had medical skill, one range improving skill, and etc. How do you keep track micromanagement information while trying to keep the tactical part of the game going?

Why not just move the abilities over to the squad? It would take out some tedious work out of the game.

It keeps the game from being too deadly. That way you do not need to worry about losing skill if you lose one squad member.

If squad are going to have cohesive when an entire squad would still move over to a location to plant the bomb so?

I do not think adding a cheese grater and a miniature chainsaw into the handle of a scalpel would improve the game that much.

Let me have my entire squad be of the same squad members so I can focus on the tactical part of the game and less on the slower part of Squad management.

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Re: Pre-Alpha Project - Stats

Post by Kris Knives » Fri Jan 27, 2012 4:22 pm

Wiouds wrote:Here the problem with your ideal:
Let say you have a squad of six one had medical skill, one range improving skill, and etc. How do you keep track micromanagement information while trying to keep the tactical part of the game going?
What is wrong with just having different models for different units? I don't see any need for micromanaging.
Wiouds wrote:Why not just move the abilities over to the squad? It would take out some tedious work out of the game.
Did you read my last post? I went over exactly why there are major problems with giving the whole squad every ability. I don't care to repeat myself.
Wiouds wrote:It keeps the game from being too deadly. That way you do not need to worry about losing skill if you lose one squad member.
It is a feature, not a bug. The game is supposed to be deadly and this is supposed to make you worry about loosing a skill.
Wiouds wrote:If squad are going to have cohesive when an entire squad would still move over to a location to plant the bomb so?
Yes, but the rest of the squad could, for example, go into overwatch while a single unit plants the bomb. The squad works as a team supporting the action. Also by having only a single unit play the bomb you can avoid a lot of really cheesy tactics.
Wiouds wrote:I do not think adding a cheese grater and a miniature chainsaw into the handle of a scalpel would improve the game that much.
That analogy makes no sense and proves you are not even thinking about the same thing as what I'm talking about. The scalpel in the sniper strike to remove the squad options, not the squad options themselves, so your cheese grater analogy makes no sense.

I'm saying I should be able to shoot out the tires on a car, while you are saying I should have to blow it to even slow it down.
Wiouds wrote:Let me have my entire squad be of the same squad members so I can focus on the tactical part of the game and less on the slower part of Squad management.
Why is my adding a demolition expert, a medic and spotter to my squad keeping you from fighting the clone wars?

Also the very fact that you wouldn't consider this the tactical part of the game boggles my mind.

By the logic of your argument, if you really hate "squad management", why don't we just have all the units use the same stats and apply all options to the whole army? Wouldn't that improve things by totally focusing on your tactics and having a optimal game without distractions according to what you are telling me?

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Re: Pre-Alpha Project - Stats

Post by LLeRRoux » Fri Jan 27, 2012 4:54 pm

Seeing your example of adding a bomb expert, I can see how you could have different models without affecting the current game mechanics. However, unless you want to remake the mechanics, you will need to keep the stats homogenous within the same squad.

In other words, I'm fine with adding different loadout options on models in a squad, as long as everybody in that squad still has the same numbers when it comes to shooting/close combat.

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Re: Pre-Alpha Project - Stats

Post by Kris Knives » Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:04 pm

LLeRRoux wrote:Seeing your example of adding a bomb expert, I can see how you could have different models without affecting the current game mechanics. However, unless you want to remake the mechanics, you will need to keep the stats homogenous within the same squad.

In other words, I'm fine with adding different loadout options on models in a squad, as long as everybody in that squad still has the same numbers when it comes to shooting/close combat.
I agree 100%, if I indicated otherwise I misspoke.

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Re: Pre-Alpha Project - Stats

Post by Wiouds » Sat Jan 28, 2012 1:00 am

I still do not see anything that it improve the game by but making it a bit slower.

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Re: Pre-Alpha Project - Stats

Post by evilgreenthing » Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:42 am

it makes it more interesting...
sincerely EGT

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Re: Pre-Alpha Project - Stats

Post by Wiouds » Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:31 am

evilgreenthing wrote:it makes it more interesting...
Or, it just add some squad micromanagement into the game, and it many not make the game more interesting.

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Re: Pre-Alpha Project - Stats

Post by LLeRRoux » Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:32 pm

It doesn't add any micromanagement at all! In the previous example of the bombing specialist, you don't even need to determine specifically which model is holding the bomb. You just need to remember that squad contains a bomber and they can use it.

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Re: Pre-Alpha Project - Stats

Post by Cow » Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:09 pm

LLeRRoux wrote:It doesn't add any micromanagement at all! In the previous example of the bombing specialist, you don't even need to determine specifically which model is holding the bomb. You just need to remember that squad contains a bomber and they can use it.

Ya, this idea is best. Pretty sure I recall that the dudes in a squad MUST have the same stats n' equipment to wrok with the mechanics as they are now. Adding on a speacial ability like "bomber" is pretty easy to do. If there is any doubt, imagine the squad leader provides these abilities. Otherwise he is the same as the other guys.
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Re: Pre-Alpha Project - Stats

Post by Kris Knives » Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:13 am

LLeRRoux wrote:It doesn't add any micromanagement at all! In the previous example of the bombing specialist, you don't even need to determine specifically which model is holding the bomb. You just need to remember that squad contains a bomber and they can use it.
Actually that wasn't what I was saying at all. You are in fact actually agreeing with Wiouds in all fairness.

The idea is definitely to have specific units bring specific powers even though they share stats. I just didn't bother to respond to Wiouds since he had restored to the "Not it isn't" line of argument vs. actually discussing the idea any further.

I'd argue whatever "management" this might bring to the game is one a vast majority of Wargamers already take for granted as very few games feature uniform forces and the benefits it add such as increased strategy, increased design space and generally making the game more interest and fun are many and varied.

Additionally also it would be good for the game and its players to add some more models to the game which I think is an element most people are overlooking. After all since the game is supposed to support itself strictly on model sales giving people excuses to buy and/or customized a variety of models to allow you to run different squad configurations just makes good business sense.

@Cow - Did you read the previous posts? Again squads must have the same stats to function under this system but do not need have the same abilities. An individual model could bring benefits or options to the squad without impacting the system. I won't repeat several posts worth of argument here but the short of it is that if the squad has the power collectively you cut off a massive part of the game leaving people only one option, kill the whole squad. Where as if specific models give the squads different benefits you open up a lot of game play giving people strategic options to mitigate rather then simply destroy. One point I will repeat is my example of giving people the option to shoot out tired on a car vs telling people they can only blow the car up if they want to slow the car down.

Regardless I'm done with this topic. This thread is supposed to be about stats and no one is saying anything new on the side topic so if you want to continue to debate the virtues of boring uniform nonstrategic squads vs the vices of overly complicated micromanagement intensives specialist filled squads I'd suggest making a new topic on this point if you still feel you have something new to add on the topic or a new idea on the subject.

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Re: Pre-Alpha Project - Stats

Post by Kuhamade » Fri Mar 02, 2012 3:26 pm

Having only lately looked into the whole DP game, I'd suggest:
The "DP-combat" stat is the sum of a unit's/solo's Command and the combat skill relevant to the range at hand. So in close combat related DP-effects, you'd add the Command to the melee skill and then use that for all the purposes of resolving that DP action/effect/something. When using DP-stuff at range you'd add the ranged combat skill etc. Thus it would represent the skills and wits of a unit in handling these DP-apparatuses in their own area of combat expertise.
This would create a difference between units without needing to add another stat and is also in line with the "adding up stuff"-line of the game.
If the melee and range skills are the same (which I think they shouldn't) then this won't probably work.
Just an idea for you guys to chew on, of course the DP-skill mechanics would have to be made so that the higher starting stat is considered.
Normal Command modifiers would apply.

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