Pre-Alpha Project - Close Combat Rules

This is for topics that are out of date.
Locked
User avatar
Kris Knives
MiniWarGaming Crazed Zealot
Posts: 529
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:48 pm

Pre-Alpha Project - Close Combat Rules

Post by Kris Knives » Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:39 pm

Okay if you haven't read the "next Step?" thread the goal of the Pre-Alpha project is to produce a series of testable rules for a pre-alpha version of DP.

As such we want something relatively simple (these rules are basic starting points that can grow based on play testing). I'm starting with CC because I think that is going to be the hardest, given how previous threads went. I know I just said but keep in mind these do not need to be advanced definative rules just balanced and simple rules people can use for play testing.

I purpose the following five ideas for the pre-alpha rules:

A.)

Melee

1. Meleers roll 2d6 + Melee Skill + # of men in squad
2. Subtract target Defense.
3. Result is number of hits. This can't be greater than the number in the squad.
4. Roll a # of d6 = # of hits times RoA of weapon.
5. Target number is Armour of Target - Strength of Weapon.

B.) Just like in shooting, the defender takes the attack without the option to counter attack.

C. Normally units can move and then attack (melee or shooting) only in a single combat phase however I suggest we develop rules for a "rush" option allowing units to fire suppressing fire as they charge into CC and then melee attack to make melee combat more viable. My thought is that having a unit rush would cost a command point to balance it out.

D. Units in CC range are considered to have overwatch verses the unit they are fighting. Should they choose to take any action accept melee the opponent normal overwatch rules apply allowing the other unit to attack.

E. Two units engaged in CC are considered one target, except to snipers.
--Supressing one supresses both.
--Shots fired in are spread out between two units rounded up towards the attacker. IE: A squad of 7 fireing into melee combat would roll twice as if they had attacked with a squad of 3 (firing on thier own troops) and 4 (shot at the enemy). This does not apply when both units are suppressed.

Alternately we could go with an even simpler cover safe for units in CC, but I don't think that is the way to go in a high fatality game like DP.

User avatar
evilgreenthing
Lives, breathes, and eats MiniWarGaming
Posts: 1803
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:07 pm
Location: no, u cant know wher im sleeping

Re: Pre-Alpha Project - Close Combat Rules

Post by evilgreenthing » Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:25 pm

I like the basis of it, but it seems rather bland. Its pretty much just shooting, but without range. I feel that something else should be added to make it a far more viable option. I do like the suppress then move, then fire, but that only works with people with guns, and not every melee unit would have those, if we include it, I dont think that it should cost a command point, because I feel that those should only be applied to 'cooler' more unique actions. What we could do is that at the units phase, they can opt to make a charge move if not already withn in melee range (about 1" say?), this charge move can be the speed of the unit +1-2" and would give them an addition to either hit or wounds, probably hit. The move most be in a striaght line, and cannot pass through any models (question, are we allowing units to pass through friendly models?). A charge cannot be connducted upoun an enemy that they cannot see. If the enemy unit is in cover, then the bonus to hit does not apply. (If you like this idea, then how would it interact with suppressed units?). Thats my thoughts on the matter, I dont think that the basic machenic has anythign wrong with it. Another side question, I think that the number of attacks should be based on a seperate attack stat, that can be added too by melee weapons.
sincerely EGT

Wiouds
MiniWarGaming Crazed Zealot
Posts: 644
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2011 5:21 pm

Re: Pre-Alpha Project - Close Combat Rules

Post by Wiouds » Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:28 pm

I like the ideal that all attack follow the same flow with some changes.

To improve melee we can add more custom abilities to them.

I say the weapons decided on the rate of attack and the the fighter can pick from an number with different costs.

User avatar
Kris Knives
MiniWarGaming Crazed Zealot
Posts: 529
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:48 pm

Re: Pre-Alpha Project - Close Combat Rules

Post by Kris Knives » Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:03 am

evilgreenthing wrote:I like the basis of it, but it seems rather bland. Its pretty much just shooting, but without range.
Well, that is because it is supposed to be both those things. I have a bit of a different design approach than Matt. Matt's take is to build the game in sections and then assemble it. My approach is to build a stripped down version of the game than play around with it till we evolve it into the full version of the game we want it to be. I've always found it much easier to build on something simple then design an advanced interconnected system from scratch. Additionally starting simple and then making advanced rules helps to zero in on if something is fundamentally flawed or just needs some rules tweaks.

That is the approach I'd like to take, but I'll go into pre-alpha with whatever the majority supports if we can't reach a consensus. If everyone, or at least most people interested in test, likes a particular rule than it is better for the project to just test it and see what happens so I'm going to try and not get stuck on any one point.
evilgreenthing wrote: I feel that something else should be added to make it a far more viable option.
I agree if we can keep it simple...but unless we plan to make one of the two pre-alpha factions melee focused I feel that is probably more of a phase 2 item.
evilgreenthing wrote: I do like the suppress then move, then fire, but that only works with people with guns, and not every melee unit would have those, if we include it,
Again I agree, but unless we are using a melee faction for the pre-alpha material I see that as a phase 2 concern.
evilgreenthing wrote:I dont think that it should cost a command point, because I feel that those should only be applied to 'cooler' more unique actions.
Fair enough. I see what you mean.
evilgreenthing wrote:What we could do is that at the units phase, they can opt to make a charge move if not already withn in melee range (about 1" say?), this charge move can be the speed of the unit +1-2" and would give them an addition to either hit or wounds, probably hit. The move most be in a striaght line, and cannot pass through any models (question, are we allowing units to pass through friendly models?). A charge cannot be connducted upoun an enemy that they cannot see. If the enemy unit is in cover, then the bonus to hit does not apply. (If you like this idea, then how would it interact with suppressed units?).
One point of clarification. I called it "surging" instead of charging because I see charging as a strictly melee attack following more along the lines you describe (which I'd add in phase 2 when we get into a melee heavy faction) where you get your movement bonuses and all that. Surging is intended to be similar but still its own animal.

As for the concept you put forward hmmmmm....well I request permission to sleep on this idea a bit and think it over but here is my initial reaction.

1. Melee range of 1" sounds good
2. I'd suggest we make a slight tweak for pre-alpha. The unit makes a command check and can move a number of inches extra based on how much they rolled over the command check, however I'd really like to reserve that for flat out charging.
3. I'd agree the move must be in a strait line, cannot pass through any other models (including friendlies) and cannot be conducted upon an unseen enemy. Perhaps in the advanced rules we can add a rule for having units all charge together to avoid tripping over each other.
4. I'd suggest instead of giving them a bonus to hit while surging that we instead handle it like this. The surging unit can make a suppression roll before moving (for the firing of weapons while advancing), and that surging units automatically get some sort of bonus like +2 to weapon skill vs suppressed units.
evilgreenthing wrote: Another side question, I think that the number of attacks should be based on a seperate attack stat, that can be added too by melee weapons.
Again sounds reasonable but I'd like to sleep on it before I try to form a real opinion on it.

I'm thinking again of trying to have an economy of stats for simplicity in pre-alpha and part of me thinks if units have a separate melee attack stat instead of just a general combat skill/weapon then units probably should have a separate melee defense score too and I know I don't want to get into that in pre-alpha.
Wiouds wrote:I like the ideal that all attack follow the same flow with some changes.

To improve melee we can add more custom abilities to them.

I say the weapons decided on the rate of attack and the the fighter can pick from an number with different costs.
That is more in line with my own initial thoughts for this phase of development; Keep stats simple, and allow melee focused unit custom abilities and equipment to make melee more viable and interesting, then expand on that in phase 2 with stuff like a unique combat stat, options and rules.

User avatar
evilgreenthing
Lives, breathes, and eats MiniWarGaming
Posts: 1803
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:07 pm
Location: no, u cant know wher im sleeping

Re: Pre-Alpha Project - Close Combat Rules

Post by evilgreenthing » Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:15 am

I dont think there should be too defences, its not needed, because if you think about it, a units defence wouldnt vary much from range and melee. Certin things would be an exception, like things with large energy shields, these would block most ranged attacks, but wouldnt really help agienst melee, as you could just stab through it. By attacks, I ment number of attacks
sincerely EGT

User avatar
Kris Knives
MiniWarGaming Crazed Zealot
Posts: 529
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:48 pm

Re: Pre-Alpha Project - Close Combat Rules

Post by Kris Knives » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:36 am

Well, I wrote out a big post explaining my thoughts on why there should be two defenses and what that adds to the game but since Matt only included one defense stat in his original units lets assume for now we'll only have one defense stat and any bonuses for ranged defense vs CC defense will be part of equipment and abilities if present at all.

User avatar
LLeRRoux
MiniWarGaming Regular
Posts: 82
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2011 6:22 pm

Re: Pre-Alpha Project - Close Combat Rules

Post by LLeRRoux » Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:47 pm

Kris Knives wrote: A.)

Melee

1. Meleers roll 2d6 + Melee Skill + # of men in squad
2. Subtract target Defense.
3. Result is number of hits. This can't be greater than the number in the squad.
4. Roll a # of d6 = # of hits times RoA of weapon.
5. Target number is Armour of Target - Strength of Weapon.
Good stuff. Keeping it similar to shooting in terms of rules will help make everything simpler and easier to remember. Howeer, I feel there should be some sort of comparison between the two units' combat skill, since a competent fighter will not only hit more easily but also avoid being hit. Perhaps just add CS to the defence when in close combat?

Kris Knives wrote:B.) Just like in shooting, the defender takes the attack without the option to counter attack.
I'll have to disagree on this one. Matt said he wanted CC to be deadly for both sides. This rule, however, would make melee just as deadly as two squads firing at eachother.
I believe both units should either hit either at the same time or one after the other, as determined by some initiative test (?). Personally, I would prefer the former for the moment, as it would be simpler for pre-alpha(and even for later versions).
Kris Knives wrote:C. Normally units can move and then attack (melee or shooting) only in a single combat phase however I suggest we develop rules for a "rush" option allowing units to fire suppressing fire as they charge into CC and then melee attack to make melee combat more viable. My thought is that having a unit rush would cost a command point to balance it out.
Wouldn't that be just the exact same as taking an action for supressing fire, then one for charging?
Kris Knives wrote:D. Units in CC range are considered to have overwatch verses the unit they are fighting. Should they choose to take any action accept melee the opponent normal overwatch rules apply allowing the other unit to attack.
Makes sense, though I don't think you absolutely need to compare it to overwatch in the official rules. Just saying a unit in CC can attack if its enemy tries to do something else should be enough.

Kris Knives wrote:E. Two units engaged in CC are considered one target, except to snipers.
--Supressing one supresses both.
--Shots fired in are spread out between two units rounded up towards the attacker. IE: A squad of 7 fireing into melee combat would roll twice as if they had attacked with a squad of 3 (firing on thier own troops) and 4 (shot at the enemy). This does not apply when both units are suppressed.
This , I really love. It definitely adds more depth than simply not being allowed to shoot at units in CC. One minor thing annoying me is the hits should be spread in the same ratio as the number of models in the two squads being shot at, but that would just require you to calculate the ratio every time you want to fire into CC and that would end up being a pain in the back.
evilgreenthing wrote:I dont think there should be too defences, its not needed, because if you think about it, a units defence wouldnt vary much from range and melee. Certin things would be an exception, like things with large energy shields, these would block most ranged attacks, but wouldnt really help agienst melee, as you could just stab through it. By attacks, I ment number of attacks
I completely agree.

User avatar
Kris Knives
MiniWarGaming Crazed Zealot
Posts: 529
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:48 pm

Re: Pre-Alpha Project - Close Combat Rules

Post by Kris Knives » Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:04 pm

LLeRRoux wrote:
Kris Knives wrote: A.)

Melee

1. Meleers roll 2d6 + Melee Skill + # of men in squad
2. Subtract target Defense.
3. Result is number of hits. This can't be greater than the number in the squad.
4. Roll a # of d6 = # of hits times RoA of weapon.
5. Target number is Armour of Target - Strength of Weapon.
Good stuff. Keeping it similar to shooting in terms of rules will help make everything simpler and easier to remember. Howeer, I feel there should be some sort of comparison between the two units' combat skill, since a competent fighter will not only hit more easily but also avoid being hit. Perhaps just add CS to the defence when in close combat?
I figured that would be restricted to dedicated CC units who would get a Parry ability allowing them to add their combat skill to CC as well as counter attack. Strictly ranged units like snipers would lack this capacity making them vulnerable while by contrast all unit who have a CC weapon would get this ability standard.
LLeRRoux wrote:
Kris Knives wrote:B.) Just like in shooting, the defender takes the attack without the option to counter attack.
I'll have to disagree on this one. Matt said he wanted CC to be deadly for both sides. This rule, however, would make melee just as deadly as two squads firing at eachother.
I believe both units should either hit either at the same time or one after the other, as determined by some initiative test (?). Personally, I would prefer the former for the moment, as it would be simpler for pre-alpha(and even for later versions).
See my notes on Parry. I personally think CC should only be deadly if both sides have hand to hand weapons. If the defender lacks a melee weapon they should be slaughtered.
LLeRRoux wrote:
Kris Knives wrote:C. Normally units can move and then attack (melee or shooting) only in a single combat phase however I suggest we develop rules for a "rush" option allowing units to fire suppressing fire as they charge into CC and then melee attack to make melee combat more viable. My thought is that having a unit rush would cost a command point to balance it out.
Wouldn't that be just the exact same as taking an action for supressing fire, then one for charging?
Yes & No. It is a single action so you can't attempt to suppress the enemy on the advance unless you can finish in CC range to basically get a bonus attack. So yes it is basically two standard actions but it does have some restriction on when/the conditions it can be used. Also again I take refuge in the call for simplicity in pre-alpha and adding complexity after that in phase 2. I'm open for any suggestions to improve on the concept or CC maneuvers in general.
LLeRRoux wrote:
Kris Knives wrote:D. Units in CC range are considered to have overwatch verses the unit they are fighting. Should they choose to take any action accept melee the opponent normal overwatch rules apply allowing the other unit to attack.
Makes sense, though I don't think you absolutely need to compare it to overwatch in the official rules. Just saying a unit in CC can attack if its enemy tries to do something else should be enough.
Good point.
LLeRRoux wrote:
Kris Knives wrote:E. Two units engaged in CC are considered one target, except to snipers.
--Suppressing one supresses both.
--Shots fired in are spread out between two units rounded up towards the attacker. IE: A squad of 7 fireing into melee combat would roll twice as if they had attacked with a squad of 3 (firing on thier own troops) and 4 (shot at the enemy). This does not apply when both units are suppressed.
This , I really love. It definitely adds more depth than simply not being allowed to shoot at units in CC. One minor thing annoying me is the hits should be spread in the same ratio as the number of models in the two squads being shot at, but that would just require you to calculate the ratio every time you want to fire into CC and that would end up being a pain in the back.
Glad you like it. I agree with you if we could find a way to work the ratios quickly and easily that would be nice, but I don't think it is really worth spending a lot of time on as it is easy to suppress in this game so it is unlikely you'll be firing into your own troops very often.
LLeRRoux wrote:
evilgreenthing wrote:I dont think there should be too defences, its not needed, because if you think about it, a units defence wouldnt vary much from range and melee. Certin things would be an exception, like things with large energy shields, these would block most ranged attacks, but wouldnt really help agienst melee, as you could just stab through it. By attacks, I ment number of attacks
I completely agree.
I concede the point as Matt's notes suggests he shares this opinion and if that were not enough the consensus seems to agree with him so I think that pretty definitively decides that their will be one defense stat regardless of how many attack stats there are.

User avatar
LLeRRoux
MiniWarGaming Regular
Posts: 82
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2011 6:22 pm

Re: Pre-Alpha Project - Close Combat Rules

Post by LLeRRoux » Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:19 pm

Kris Knives wrote:I figured that would be restricted to dedicated CC units who would get a Parry ability allowing them to add their combat skill to CC as well as counter attack. Strictly ranged units like snipers would lack this capacity making them vulnerable while by contrast all unit who have a CC weapon would get this ability standard.
That makes sense... If we had made it default, we probably would have removed it from some units anyway, so I can agree with that.

User avatar
Kris Knives
MiniWarGaming Crazed Zealot
Posts: 529
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:48 pm

Re: Pre-Alpha Project - Close Combat Rules

Post by Kris Knives » Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:19 am

Would anyone be willing to write up a tentative version of the CC rules? If not I'll try and put something together on Monday. I think it would help to have an update as we've had a lot of discussion on the subject now.

User avatar
Cow
MiniWarGaming Zealot
Posts: 319
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2011 2:09 am
Location: Campbell River, BC

Re: Pre-Alpha Project - Close Combat Rules

Post by Cow » Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:38 am

Definately enjoy Overwatch for dudes in melee. It elegently solves the "I charge in, the back up and shoot" bug.

I am a fan of keeping CC and shooting pretty much the exact same thing. No seperate phase, its just make a move, then do something. (attack, use ability, etc.)

Obviously a handful of rules will apply to CC specifically, like the Overwatch thing I praised above. As far as Pre-Alpha is concerned, don't add any special stats. In addition to any equipment, just assume each unit has a 1" range weapon called fisticuffs or whatever with a strength gleaned from the strength of the model and a rate of attacks gleaned from the feriocity of the model. Until legit descriptions of dudes are laid out, just make it up!
My wine coaster is a blast template.

My Tank is Fight!

My other shirt has a Psychic Hood

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest