10 questions about Overwatch

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Kris Knives
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10 questions about Overwatch

Post by Kris Knives » Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:35 am

I'd like to discuss overwatch again. I know some talk has done into it, but I have ten question which I think warrents either bringing up or repeating for purposes of discussing overatch and its place/effect on the game.

Question 1: Does overwatch let you make multiple attacks when in overwatch.

Example: Squad Blue declares they will be using overwatch. Then squad Pink tries to suppress them, they fail and blue shoots back. In the next phase, squad red tries to move through Blue Line of Sight. Does Blue get to shoot at squad red?

Question 2: Doesn't this promote defensive gameplay? If I'm in good cover and have an enemy in my sites, why not overwatch? Since they can't shoot or move without giving me the options of shooting at them and interrupting, isn't it in my best interest to always use this ability? If I don't want to move then overwatch seems to always be the right move.

Question 3: What happens when two squads over watch each other? So going back to the previous scenario: Blue and Pink are overwatching each other. Then red move through and blue fires on red. Does Pink get to shoot back at Blue and if so can blue shoot back at Pink?

Question 4: Am I limited in what weapons I can overwatch with? Can a rocket trooper overwatch? Can a sniper overwatch? Can I use a DP power if attacking someone due to overwatch? Can I launch area of effect missiles via overwatch?

Question 5: If I try to suppress a unit overwatching which effect goes first? Does the overwatch unit get to shoot first or does the attacker get a chance to suppress them first and shutdown overwatch?

Question 6: Should some units be able to overwatch easier? So maybe a special ability of some units is they can fire and still overwatch so long as they don't move or perhaps "entrench" and do extra damage while using overwatch.

Question 7: How does stealth interact with overwatch? Do stealth units get some capacity to avoid overwatch?

Question 8: Can I choose to suppress as part of an overwatch attack?

Question 9: Can a melee unit overwatch? If so is that different from overwatching with a ranged weapon? (I think it would need to be.)

Question 10: Does overwatch encourage armies to stay behind cover and play heavy defense instead of offense.

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Re: 10 questions about Overwatch

Post by Wiouds » Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:56 am

Answer for #1
I would guess a squad can only attack once while in overwatch.

Answer for #2
Some players could be more inclined to play defensive but that that true with any game. There need be some type of rules for cover place so forts are not made unless it is apart of the scenario.
It also encourages more tactical moves and reduce the number that want to blindly charge forward.
With the limit overwatch angle and the fact the squad can not move, overwatch is very limited in what it can do even for a defensive player.
Could over limited be added to overwatch for play testing or even removed.
Also you do not want the game to be all about getting out heavy attacks.

Answer for #3
From what I understand about overwatch is that it is hard counter for other commands. That means that it should not be able to acted on an enemy that is also in overwatch.

Answer for #4
At the moments any squad can use overwatch but I can see it being limited to what weapons can be use for it.

Answer for #5
I say that suppressing fire should automatically stop overwatch. In other word suppressing fire is a hard counter to overwatch

Answer for #6
I can see some squad being able to overwatch easier. Like a corporation has guard men have an increase to current offense when acts on overwatch.
I can also see some squad get an increase to current defense when being attack by an overwatch squad.

Answer for #7
I say stealth should be able to get pass overwatch. Maybe the squad in overwatch could get an increase into detecting the stealth unit since they are doing nothing but waiting for the enemies.

Answer for #8
I would say that a squad should only be able to attack when acting on overwatch but this could change after some play testing.

Answer for #9
I do not know if they can. I can see a melee squad bracing themselves for battle. A brace is where the squad is ready for a melee attack and could get an increase to current defense.

Answer for #10
My answer to this is the same as answer for #2

Question 11:
When should an overwatch squad end the overwatch if the squad have not acted?

I am asking when a squad is in overwatch but the enemy was able to stay out over their overwatch angle for the rest of the turn. When can the controlling player remove the squad out of overwatch.

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Re: 10 questions about Overwatch

Post by Kris Knives » Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:37 pm

Hmmmm well here is my thoughts based on those answers.

-Overwatch shouldn't be available to all units. Instead most units should just have the option to delay action until the start of the next phase.

-Units with overwatch should have an overwatch rating which determines the number of times they can attack on overwatch. A sniper might only be able to fire one needing time to line up its shot while a machine gunner might be able to fire on everything that moves.

-Overwatch units should not be able to suppress on the counter attack.

-Overwatch should always act first so if someone tries to suppress them overwatch should give them the option to fire first at the would be suppressor.

-Overwatch end automatically after the overwatch unit is attacked (they still get their overwatch attack ahead of the attacker and if they kill the attacker overwatch doesn't end).

-Melee units should be given the option to overwatch but the rules should be different. When someone enter their LoS if they are in range, they can move to that unit and attack it. If they kill the unit they may then they may move again and return to overwatching otherwise they remain in melee combat.

-Overwatch should only be an option for units that are in some sort of cover.

-Overwatch units should have the option to move (but not shoot) or entrench if they are in cover and did not move. Entrenched units gain certain bonuses over normal overwatchers
--Entrenched units do not stop overwatching if attacked.
--Entrenched units can choose to suppress on overwatch attack or use other options.
--Melee units using entrench become stealthed or gain a bonus to their cover.

-Units with both melee and ranged attack may choose which they wish to employ when they enter Overwatch.

-Overwatch end when the unit takes another turn.

Rational – By limiting overwatch it makes it more impactful and makes army composition important. Overwatch could become very over powered in an objective game, particularly on units with a long range. By making players choose specific units with overwatch it again increases the important of tactical positioning. Forcing players to try and move those specific units into key positions, however it also gives you greater rewards for doing so. It also encourages offensive game play by giving players a chance to attack overwatchers when they first move into position but before they can entrench. Once entrenched however an attacker be very careful and employ careful tactics such as suppression to gain an advantage over the entrenched unit.

Thoughts or counter points?

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Re: 10 questions about Overwatch

Post by Wiouds » Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:24 pm

I say what squads can do overwatch is base on what weapon they have. Like To area weapons can not be used for overwatch. Some weapons like a placement turret could have more than one overwatch attack.

For the most part I say that overwatch should be a counter to the player action within the overwatch angle.

For the suppressing fire one a overwatch squad, I say the overwatch squad can attack them first or choose not to react but risk being suppressed.

I say the overwatch end when they player activate that squad again.

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Re: 10 questions about Overwatch

Post by Kris Knives » Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:17 pm

Wiouds wrote:I say what squads can do overwatch is base on what weapon they have. Like To area weapons can not be used for overwatch. Some weapons like a placement turret could have more than one overwatch attack.
If the game supposts that, weapon based overwatch would probably be a good way to handle it. However based on the play test it doesn't seem like one selects a units weapons so that would once again leave overwatch to either be universal or on a unit to unit basis.
Wiouds wrote:For the suppressing fire one a overwatch squad, I say the overwatch squad can attack them first or choose not to react but risk being suppressed.

I say the overwatch end when they player activate that squad again.
I agree.

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Re: 10 questions about Overwatch

Post by slaughtergames » Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:06 pm

first of all; i have asked matt question nr. 1 some time ago: a unit in overwatch can only (re)act once.

nr. 2: a unit can't do ANYTHING during their own activation, if it chooses to overwatch for the remainder of the game turn... so you can't move towards an objective and such... and i have a feeling that DP won't be about killing enemies :)

nr. 3: using your example, i think this would happen: Blue and Pink are overwatching each other. Then red moves through and blue fires on red. pink would be able to fire at blue, but blue couldn't fire back at pink, as they have already used their overwatch.

nr. 4: i wouldn't agree if overwatch would be available to ALL units. but I wouldn't determine it by the weapon they're using. maybe the "overwatch" special rule or something?
what i'm trying to say, is that this hasn't been determined yet; it could also be a command (using command points)

nr. 5: it depends...
if the target unit is moving, the overwatching unit is obviously acting first.
if the target unit is shooting something else, it could be simultaneous? (removed casualties from target still get to fire)
if the target shoots at the overwatcher, i think it would be either simultaneous, or the target get's to shoot first, as the overwatchers are reacting...

nr. 6: shooting and still overwatching afterwards?? damn! isn't that a little powerful my friend?
and i think entrenhing is kinda meh, we already have the +6 DEF heavy cover.

nr. 7: this has actually already been sorted out: a stealthed unit has 3-5 "stealth markers"- empty bases, representing where the stealthed model COULD be. ONE of the bases IS the actual model. every and any time a unit wants to attack a stealth base/marker/token, they take a "stealth check". if the check is passed, it is revealed whether or not that base was the actual model. if the check is failed however, they didn't see the enemy and couldn't attack it.

nr. 8: no. those are two separate things. but we aren't sure yet what command points can do for us in the future.....

nr. 9: i have heard some discussion about this..... but nothing has been decided.. what has been discussed here seems fair enough to me..

nr. 10: it depends on:
-is overwatch available to all units?
-does it give that much of an advantage?
i'm going to explain that last point. every unit can shoot after moving.(assuming you can do both in one activation) so if you can move to a better position, and then shoot, why overwatch?
"i buy me new deffkopta!!"
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Re: 10 questions about Overwatch

Post by Kris Knives » Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:39 pm

slaughtergames wrote:I have a feeling that DP won't be about killing enemies :)
Really? :?: ? Given how high a fatality system it seems to be shaping up to be I can't see how a good chuck of it won't be about killing enemies.
slaughtergames wrote:nr. 4: i wouldn't agree if overwatch would be available to ALL units. but I wouldn't determine it by the weapon they're using. maybe the "overwatch" special rule or something?
what i'm trying to say, is that this hasn't been determined yet; it could also be a command (using command points)
I know, which is why I'm trying to get some discussion going on Overwatch. Hopefully if we put our heads together we'll come up with some good ideas or at the very least poke some holes in a few bad ones.
slaughtergames wrote:nr. 5: it depends...
if the target unit is moving, the overwatching unit is obviously acting first.
if the target unit is shooting something else, it could be simultaneous? (removed casualties from target still get to fire)
if the target shoots at the overwatcher, i think it would be either simultaneous, or the target get's to shoot first, as the overwatchers are reacting...
That seems to remove most the value of Overwatch if you can't strike first in those situations.
slaughtergames wrote:nr. 6: shooting and still overwatching afterwards?? damn! isn't that a little powerful my friend?
and i think entrenhing is kinda meh, we already have the +6 DEF heavy cover.
Everything is relative as Matt said. It really depends on what other units can do. If you have a mass effect like powers on some units that can lift/knock enemies from behind cover or rockets which can breach cover then +6 DEF heavy cover isn't all that great. On the other hand if you don't have much options except to suppress a unit behind cover and try to out maneuver it then yea it is extremely powerful. Snipers already auto suppress in the test game which I think is a very, very strong ability that is only likely to get stronger if suppression is buffed like Matt suggested. With that in mind, no I don't think say a machine gunner who could shoot and overwatch would necessarily be that powerful if it filled the same slot in your army as a sniper or something similar.

As for entrenchment, well is just a suggestion. I think it could add something to the game and is at least work a try but if it doesn't sound fun then it doesn't sound fun and that is the end of the story. I will say though I think it is probably too early to write it off on the grounds of power since number can be very easily tweeked and units/abilities have not really been defined at all.

So does it just sound too strong or just not that fun?
slaughtergames wrote:nr. 7: this has actually already been sorted out: a stealthed unit has 3-5 "stealth markers"- empty bases, representing where the stealthed model COULD be. ONE of the bases IS the actual model. every and any time a unit wants to attack a stealth base/marker/token, they take a "stealth check". if the check is passed, it is revealed whether or not that base was the actual model. if the check is failed however, they didn't see the enemy and couldn't attack it.
I seem to recall there being talk of tiers including things like invisibility.
slaughtergames wrote:nr. 8: no. those are two separate things. but we aren't sure yet what command points can do for us in the future.....
Whoa there don't trail off! The point is to discuss stuff like that. Lets talk about the idea of suppression via overwatch and command points. That could be a whole thread unto itself.
slaughtergames wrote:nr. 9: i have heard some discussion about this..... but nothing has been decided.. what has been discussed here seems fair enough to me..
Thanks, again just a suggestion.
slaughtergames wrote:nr. 10: it depends on:
-is overwatch available to all units?
-does it give that much of an advantage?
i'm going to explain that last point. every unit can shoot after moving.(assuming you can do both in one activation) so if you can move to a better position, and then shoot, why overwatch?
Ah well I can answer that one! Obviously it depends on overwatch's relative power. However I'd say one good reason is that overwatch can interrupt according to the rules. Now I admit I'm assuming here based on my experience with other games when your interrupt actions it tends to mess them up, but maybe that won't be the case in DP.

If it doesn't disrupt the enemy’s turn in some way (like say, stop their movement since the unit is suddenly getting fired at) then really there is probably not much reason to over watch unless you are holding an stationary objective or you have reason to believe the enemy is likely to run from cover through your kill zone.

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Re: 10 questions about Overwatch

Post by Wiouds » Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:06 pm

I never though that killing you enemies is the main focus of the DP. I believe that Matt said the game is mainly about maneuvering and positioning. That is if you do not maneuver you troops well then you should not get able to get many kills. Overwatch is can be a counter to maneuvering or something that makes it harder.

I can see Overwatch squad taking the first attack as already gotten themselves ready to attack than a squad that is moving or just start their attacks should not be as fast.

As for stealth, I do not remember anyone talking about stealth in the terms of what it interacts with overwatch.

Question #12
Should over watch have a reduce range if the faction of what the weapon range is?

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Re: 10 questions about Overwatch

Post by Kris Knives » Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:19 pm

Wiouds wrote:I never though that killing you enemies is the main focus of the DP. I believe that Matt said the game is mainly about maneuvering and positioning. That is if you do not maneuver you troops well then you should not get able to get many kills. Overwatch is can be a counter to maneuvering or something that makes it harder.
True but Matt clearly want a more aggressive game rather then a passive one and given the relative frailty of these units a lot of fatalities should typically happen in a game.

To explain:

What is happening right now the units are so vulnerable that each side hides under cover and meakly shoots back. The whole thing becomes a waiting game, more passive and careful.

What should be happening is positioning and maneuvering give you a tactical advantage so when you attack the enemy intelligently you are killing them off with minimal losses. It becomes all about applying maximum force at your enemies weakest point, more agressive and supporting risk vs reward game play.
Wiouds wrote:I can see Overwatch squad taking the first attack as already gotten themselves ready to attack than a squad that is moving or just start their attacks should not be as fast.
I agree. I see it the same way.
Wiouds wrote:Question #12
Should over watch have a reduce range if the faction of what the weapon range is?
I'm not sure what you mean. If anything I think overwatch should have more range otherwise more mobil units will just move into a good position and shoot them from a distance.

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Re: 10 questions about Overwatch

Post by slaughtergames » Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:17 pm

what i meant with "i don't think DP will be about killing enemies" is: i think it'll be more about objectives; resources and recovering tech and everything.
Question #12
Should over watch have a reduce range if the faction of what the weapon range is?
sorry, but i can't make sense out of it after the word "range". do you mean: "if the faction normally has a long range"?

in any case, i wouldn't change ranges because of overwatch...
"i buy me new deffkopta!!"
"waaaagh!"
"i did research, to find out how to minimize the randomness of the shock-attack gun."
"huh?"
"waaaagh!"
"WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGH!!"

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Re: 10 questions about Overwatch

Post by Wiouds » Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:51 pm

From my play test I found a number of things:
I try moving without overwatch and my squad was wiped out.
After I would only move forward with overwatch to help protect the forces.
I also found that without overwatch and suppresing fire the game is too deadly.

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Re: 10 questions about Overwatch

Post by slaughtergames » Sat Dec 17, 2011 4:40 pm

how is the game to deadly WITHOUT those?
"i buy me new deffkopta!!"
"waaaagh!"
"i did research, to find out how to minimize the randomness of the shock-attack gun."
"huh?"
"waaaagh!"
"WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGH!!"

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Re: 10 questions about Overwatch

Post by Wiouds » Sat Dec 17, 2011 5:09 pm

Without overwatch or suppressing fire, a squad that was out in the open can be nearly wide out in the in a single turn if I remember they were not that good of rolls too. To put simply with out a way to protect the squad moving forward where there is no care, that squad will be killed off to fast to make the game fun. It also encourage to play defensively.

After playing I believe that most if not all squad should be able to get into overwatch.

After I learn how better to use overwatch, I found the game is about affectively using my forces. This made the game more fun.

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Re: 10 questions about Overwatch

Post by Kris Knives » Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:25 am

Wiouds wrote:Without overwatch or suppressing fire, a squad that was out in the open can be nearly wide out in the in a single turn if I remember they were not that good of rolls too. To put simply with out a way to protect the squad moving forward where there is no care, that squad will be killed off to fast to make the game fun. It also encourage to play defensively.

After playing I believe that most if not all squad should be able to get into overwatch.

After I learn how better to use overwatch, I found the game is about affectively using my forces. This made the game more fun.
Would you say Overwatch was fun over all though or did all the cover, supression and overwatch get to be a hassle?

I've been a little concerned if you have like 3-4 squads overwatching it might be easy to loose track of who is overwatching where if a lot is going on in the game.

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Re: 10 questions about Overwatch

Post by Wiouds » Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:40 am

I found overwatch and suppressing fire to be fun and add to the game. Without them I found the game to be too much about moving and killing, but moving was very risky.

I had the problem until I started to use some small poker chips. While playing I had a special location for a poker chip. If a poker chip was there then all activated squads will have a poker chip near them, and for the last squad that turn I use the poker chip from special location. If the poker chip was not there then all activated squads would not have power chip near them, and for the last squad that turn I move the poker chip to the special location.

For squads that are in overwatch I just place a different color poker chip on top. When the act on overwatch, I just take off the overwatch poker chip.

Also suppressed squad get a different color chip.

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