Mechanic Idea: Dark Potential Powers Deck

This is for topics that are out of date.
User avatar
Kris Knives
MiniWarGaming Crazed Zealot
Posts: 529
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:48 pm

Re: Mechanic Idea: Dark Potential Powers Deck

Post by Kris Knives » Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:10 am

jwerulez wrote:I'm not trying to be a troll/buzz-kill, but Matt said no cards, and I have looked over DPDDs for a loop hole in that statement, and I have been uncucsessful.
When he said no cards, he ment no cards, ecxept for the use of stat managment like in warmachine
What? A loop hole? Who cares?

It is just a suggestion. If Matt doesn't like it he is free to ignore it and if he likes it he is free to change his thinking. Unless Matt says something like "Only make suggestion along the lines I've spelled out" I'm going to assume he is open to ideas since he very clearly said he is in his very first video. Until that time I'm going to feel free to make suggestions.
jwerulez wrote:Also in my personal opinion haveing cards would take out of the randomness of the game, because if a person has a potential energy army style then it might completely remove the randomness by having them draw all the good cards in the first half then completely ruinn their startegy by not being able to use potential energy
Also I just personally like dice more than cards... cards just feel a little childish for me
Okay well I can't argue with a completely arbitrary opinion like a playing piece in an game being "childish" or not. I don't understand how a different universally accepted randomizer like cards can be more or less childish then people rolling dice to determine the outcome of imaginary fantasy wars. But I can say I hold a totally different and equally valid opinion. An opinion shared by the literally millions of people who play CCG games, some of those even as internationally recognized competitive professionals who literally make their living paying the game which seems about as far removed from "childish" as you can get for a hobby type game.

Also I can point out that your first concern is an unfounded assumption.

1. Even a game extending to 8 turns is unlikely to exhaust a standard deck unless there is massive expense of DP powers.
2. If it ends up people use like 10 DP powers a turn or something of that sort which would cause a problem you could just have people reshuffle all cards back into the deck at the end of each turn.
3. No one ever said a card played was removed from the game rather the shuffled back into the deck.
4. At least in my own suggestion since both players share a single deck it shouldn't matter if the "good cards" are gone or not since you only need to beat your opponent. (I don't wish to speak for Slaughtergames's suggestion as we haven't really explored it but as I'm reading it I still don't think it would be a major problem.)

Also even if your scenario was valid if someone gets all the good draws in the first half the game it shouldn't matter what is left in the deck because with that kind of luck they should have totally and completely destroyed their opponent.

Edit: That came up a bit more confrontation that I expected. While I stand by what I said please forgive the tone as I wrote it quite late just before going to be and was a bit out of sorts at the time. We're all just making suggestion and testing ideas and no need for anyone, myself especially to get cranky about it. So sorry if I was a bit uncivil, I don't wish to create a hostile tone on the forums, just a creative one where people are free to suggest and disagree cordially.

@slaughtergames

Hmmmm I see your point and the idea has merit but I'm not sure. While I agree it could smooth out game play it seems like it would add a lot of complexity to DP powers and their design.

Could you give an example how you see effectiveness scaling? Like the difference between drawing a 2 vs a 9 so I can get a better idea of how you are thinking?

jwerulez
MiniWarGaming Regular
Posts: 52
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2011 5:32 pm

Re: Mechanic Idea: Dark Potential Powers Deck

Post by jwerulez » Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:46 pm

Well after feeling like a bit of jerk for saying the use of cards is 'childish' I was looking through my brother's old 40k n' other wargames binders, I found these cards for random effects and I got the idea for every time you use DP you have a random effect happen like for EX. your guy starts to flote from lack of energy pulling him down so his speed and defence are cut in half. There can be good and bad effects that randomly happen after the use of DP and it can very from gravity around him goes up so emune to small arms fire( one of the better random effects) or he has an over load and since this is post apocalyptic there can be obscure space junk he startes to randomly pull down( one of the worst ones) thatr can have a major or minor effect on the gameplay of the battle.

User avatar
evilgreenthing
Lives, breathes, and eats MiniWarGaming
Posts: 1803
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:07 pm
Location: no, u cant know wher im sleeping

Re: Mechanic Idea: Dark Potential Powers Deck

Post by evilgreenthing » Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:00 pm

Personaly, I really dislike cards for Miniwargaming as a whole. I feel like 1) If there is only one deck per faction, then it really limits uniqueness and 2) if you have a unique deck for each caster, then everything gets very cluttered
sincerely EGT

User avatar
evilgreenthing
Lives, breathes, and eats MiniWarGaming
Posts: 1803
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:07 pm
Location: no, u cant know wher im sleeping

Re: Mechanic Idea: Dark Potential Powers Deck

Post by evilgreenthing » Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:00 pm

Personaly, I really dislike cards for Miniwargaming as a whole. I feel like 1) If there is only one deck per faction, then it really limits uniqueness and 2) if you have a unique deck for each caster, then everything gets very cluttered
sincerely EGT

User avatar
Kris Knives
MiniWarGaming Crazed Zealot
Posts: 529
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:48 pm

Re: Mechanic Idea: Dark Potential Powers Deck

Post by Kris Knives » Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:39 am

evilgreenthing wrote:Personaly, I really dislike cards for Miniwargaming as a whole. I feel like 1) If there is only one deck per faction, then it really limits uniqueness and 2) if you have a unique deck for each caster, then everything gets very cluttered
It if fine if you don't like cards, but that sort of thinking to negate something can be applied to anything.

"I don't like dice because 1) They are too restrictive making everything a 1 in 6 chance and 2) if you use other dice it becomes to cluttered."

Having played a few war games with cards rather then dice I can say with confidence your concerns are really unfounded. Dice are much worse for clutter than cards are, particularly when you are rolling 10 or more at a time and if you are saying something like "limits uniqueness" you are really under estimating the creativity of the DP community.

jwerulez
MiniWarGaming Regular
Posts: 52
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2011 5:32 pm

Re: Mechanic Idea: Dark Potential Powers Deck

Post by jwerulez » Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:12 pm

yes it would be cluttered to have 10 dice but that is only realy for warhammer/ 40k. Matt has Dp set up so that you only roll 2 or 3 dice and add one for each member participating in the action. That way it is a little less cluttered, and in my experience with cardgames in general(like speed) if you dont have the whole deck you can have problems

User avatar
Kris Knives
MiniWarGaming Crazed Zealot
Posts: 529
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:48 pm

Re: Mechanic Idea: Dark Potential Powers Deck

Post by Kris Knives » Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:07 pm

jwerulez wrote:yes it would be cluttered to have 10 dice but that is only realy for warhammer/ 40k. Matt has Dp set up so that you only roll 2 or 3 dice and add one for each member participating in the action.
That still adds up to a lot of dice and may well get up to 10 or more.

jwerulez wrote:That way it is a little less cluttered, and in my experience with cardgames in general(like speed) if you dont have the whole deck you can have problems
Why wouldn't you have the whole deck? Forgive me if I'm assuming here but I get the impression you, and a lot of people here, are talking about some non-existent general card idea and not the specific one thread is about since a lot of comments don't seem to actually have anything to do with the idea of DP card mechanic.

I can't speak to your experience of course, but generally I've found cards easy to managed as long as their use is smartly designed and I've never had a problem with cards flying off the table, under things, knocking things over etc. etc. the way I've had with dice.

I'm not saying cards are better then dice, just and equally valid choice with their own pros and cons and again I might be assuming but mostly I'm getting the vibe that people don't like cards because they are used to dice not because they've played a lot of games with cards and had issues. I could be mistake but that is just my impression.

The only real concern I've heard which seems valid from my admittedly bias POV is complexity creep (which could be a big one), as if the rest of the game is already kind of complicated keep a separate set of rules for DP could just add to an already dense rules set vs if you can make a very streamlined set of dice based rule that follows closely in line with combat. However I'd suggest it is to early to judge that yet since so much mechanically is still assumed or simply undefined.

DacoTrilar
MiniWarGaming Regular
Posts: 90
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:52 am

Re: Mechanic Idea: Dark Potential Powers Deck

Post by DacoTrilar » Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:06 pm

@Kris Knives
I think it's a great idea, and for all the people worrying about using cards, point them to Malifaux. Malifaux doesn't have any dice, it only uses a standard playing card deck. The game comes with a 54 (52 + 2 jokers) card deck with fantastic art, but you could easily use any old playing card deck.

I like that it gives two underlying mechanics for players to balance for their armies. Like you said, it adds more strategy to the game.

User avatar
evilgreenthing
Lives, breathes, and eats MiniWarGaming
Posts: 1803
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:07 pm
Location: no, u cant know wher im sleeping

Re: Mechanic Idea: Dark Potential Powers Deck

Post by evilgreenthing » Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:45 pm

I have played Malifaux, and the cards werent bad, but I still didnt really like them. Another problem is that they wuld be expensive to develop, due to the need for individual pictures for earch card
sincerely EGT

User avatar
LLeRRoux
MiniWarGaming Regular
Posts: 82
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2011 6:22 pm

Re: Mechanic Idea: Dark Potential Powers Deck

Post by LLeRRoux » Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:00 pm

But you don't need images for every i dividual card if you're using a regular card deck...

User avatar
Kris Knives
MiniWarGaming Crazed Zealot
Posts: 529
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:48 pm

Re: Mechanic Idea: Dark Potential Powers Deck

Post by Kris Knives » Wed Jan 25, 2012 4:59 pm

@DacoTrilar: Thanks!
LLeRRoux wrote:But you don't need images for every i dividual card if you're using a regular card deck...
Exactly, thank you LLeRRoux.

And honestly Art is fairly cheap with so many starving artist on the net and you could recycle art from other places like the rule books as most companies tend to do. Plus with print on demand services if we wanted to make a custom deck with DP art as an option for serious fans and not actually cost anything to either develop or produce. I know we could at least get card with DP card backs and think there is a print on demand services which lets you customize all the "royalty" cards in addition to the card backs. (Though don't quote me on that as I haven't look at Print on Demand options in a while.)

User avatar
evilgreenthing
Lives, breathes, and eats MiniWarGaming
Posts: 1803
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:07 pm
Location: no, u cant know wher im sleeping

Re: Mechanic Idea: Dark Potential Powers Deck

Post by evilgreenthing » Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:05 pm

This really isnt going to go anywhere. You like the idea, I dont. Argueing wont change each others minds, so lets agree to disagree
sincerely EGT

User avatar
Tmb
Mighty Manufactorium of MiniWarGaming Posts
Posts: 2106
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:44 pm
Ribbons Earned: Has Completed 1 Terrain Group Build entry
Location: I live as the crow flies... err... You get what I mean.

Re: Mechanic Idea: Dark Potential Powers Deck

Post by Tmb » Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:18 pm

I doubt there will be anybody else like me but I find that out of all the things I have, cards are the thing I lose the most of.

If the game has cards I'd be pushed away from the game extremely easily, plus cards are something you have to buy, almost everyone has dice.
The Sky holds the Storm Rain Mist Lightning Cloud and the Sun all in harmony

User avatar
LLeRRoux
MiniWarGaming Regular
Posts: 82
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2011 6:22 pm

Re: Mechanic Idea: Dark Potential Powers Deck

Post by LLeRRoux » Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:55 pm

Everyone I know has at least one or two decks of cards at home, and you can get one pretty cheap for those who don't.

Anyway, I think the debate is over, since as evilgreenhing said, arguing about whether or not to have cards isn't going to change anything and Matt will have the final word on it no matter what, so unless you find an extremely good argument against Matt's current opinion (and I don't know what his opinion is about cards right now) then there's no use in telling us why you want/don't want cards in DP. Can we all agree this debate is over untill Matt voices his own view?

User avatar
evilgreenthing
Lives, breathes, and eats MiniWarGaming
Posts: 1803
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:07 pm
Location: no, u cant know wher im sleeping

Re: Mechanic Idea: Dark Potential Powers Deck

Post by evilgreenthing » Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:09 pm

I find that useing a standerd deck makes the game less "professional"
sincerely EGT

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest