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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:33 pm 
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How aout coin flips? Of course, just one coin only allows you to have a 50% chance of something, so you could flip a bunch of them and count the successes? Maybe roll them like dice? Could be funny and it most definitely be somewhat original, since I don't see coins being used in too mqny places. Here again, you can later on make custom coins for hardcore fans and EVERYBODY has fricken spare change in thir pockets. It wouldn't cost anything, since you just need to be carrying the money around, not spending it.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:05 pm 
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agian, I feel that it would look unprofessional

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:41 am 
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LLeRRoux wrote:
How aout coin flips? Of course, just one coin only allows you to have a 50% chance of something, so you could flip a bunch of them and count the successes? Maybe roll them like dice? Could be funny and it most definitely be somewhat original, since I don't see coins being used in too mqny places. Here again, you can later on make custom coins for hardcore fans and EVERYBODY has fricken spare change in thir pockets. It wouldn't cost anything, since you just need to be carrying the money around, not spending it.


First off: Coin flips are used in many, many games in one form or another. MTG has a whole sub-set of card dedicated to coin flips so your point, such as it might be, is totally without merit. Coin flips DO have their place. Game DO sell custom coins the same as they do custom dice, life counters and other game accessories to increase immersion. So yes if someone comes up with a really good idea for coins or spin or any other sort game implement we should consider it and look at the pros and cons not dismiss it out of hand. Closed minds make for poor designers.

Second: Don't be a troll. We try to keep these forum friendly and the creative process open. Feel free to be constructively critical and tell me or anyone that you hate an idea but if you want to be sarcastic go somewhere else because that is a sure way to poison a creative environment where opinions and feelings are already running high. So far everyone's managed to pull back and agree to disagree because everyone has stayed respectful and we've managed to all self moderate. Don't be the person to change all that.

evilgreenthing wrote:
agian, I feel that it would look unprofessional


Let me ask? How unprofessional is it to have a game where you don't even make all the play pieces? I'd say that looks very unprofessional on its surface. Yet games workshop does it and some people actually see it as a good thing since it lets them use custom models.

That Many games have cards, even standard playing cards and it hasn't negatively impacted the or marked them as amateur games. Dice have plenty of cons, we just tend to agree the pros out weigh them. if we gave up on every idea that seems "unprofessional" they we would totally fail to innovate because frankly most games look and feel very unprofessional until they've been professionally manufactured.

If I may suggest it seems to me that repeating your opinion isn't really very useful, we're making suggests for Matt. Changing my opinion or anyone else's in this thread is pointless. So instead of saying over and over "My opinion is that this is "unprofessional" if you feel strong about this build a case for why dice are more professional or otherwise superior and should stand alone. If dice really are better, you shouldn't have a problem building that case and convincing Matt. That way we've both done our best point out the pros & cons of the options for the person that ultimate is going to decide and allowed them to hopefully make the best choice possible.


Last edited by Kris Knives on Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:27 am 
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evilgreenthing wrote:
This really isnt going to go anywhere. You like the idea, I dont. Argueing wont change each others minds, so lets agree to disagree

Like I said earlier.
If you want me to make a case for dice, ill sure do it. Its not that I think they are the greatest thing ever, its just that I prefer them to cards or coins
Pros:
Used by most wargames, so they have a firmiliarty factor
Random: adds fun to the game.
Harder to cheat with then lets say cards, coins are even harder to cheat with
Most people have them on hand
allows for a variation in results, versus a coin, which is only yes or no.
are easier to keep track of then cards because they arnt unique
dont ware out
Cons:
Random: can cause problems
are fairly unoriginal
provide not too many options (only 1-6, vs cards which have up 52 options)

One question, would you make a test before drawing a card?
Hope I added something, as I was being a bit troll-ish

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:08 am 
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Now that is really helpful actually and gives me something new to consider. Thank you for really trying to discuss this even though you strongly disagree, I appreciate that.

You bring up a good points actually like the ease of cheating which I didn't consider since I'm not a cheater. A serious factual point that builds towards you case if we want the game to be open to tournament play. I'm not sure how much easier it is to cheat with cards than it is with dice, but it something worth thinking about.

I'm not sure agree with the last two pros (my dice chip and break all the time if I'm not using a dice box to roll in) but they are very legitimate considerations.

One strong Pro in favor of dice is they can be a modular randomizer. For example you can have people say roll 2d6 on a 2-12 scale or having people roll two or more dice and giving special events to doubles, all with the same tool. Even if cards don't work out I think this is factor we shouldn't over look. We can do a lot more than just always roll a strait d6 trying to roll x or more.

While I think there a lots of pros and cons to both dice and cards, I really the core question here is: "Does the amount of fun and strategy this might add to game justify its bother/drawbacks." and I don't feel either of us can answer that until the rest of DP develops more and maybe not even until the point where we could test play cards vs dice (or Matt just nixes the idea).

But here is a break down of how I see the main Pro/Cons for cards

Pros
Adds strategy/choices
More Dynamic then the somewhat static dice rolls
Adds the Trump Mechanic
Give DP power a special feel
Opens up design space
Sets DP apart from Warhammer/Warmachine
*Fun

Cons
Complexity - Adds one more mechanic to the game
Possible issues of slowing down game (depending on how frequently it comes/what deck manipulation powers we add to the game.)
*Possible immersion issues if cards don't match the "tone" of the game
*Unfamiliarity

*Subjective

Quote:
One question, would you make a test before drawing a card?

Well again, that will probably depend on the way the game develops in other areas but I imagine the test would be initiated and then you draw a card.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:54 pm 
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Kris Knives wrote:
Second: Don't be a troll. We try to keep these forum friendly and the creative process open. Feel free to be constructively critical and tell me or anyone that you hate an idea but if you want to be sarcastic go somewhere else because that is a sure way to poison a creative environment where opinions and feelings are already running high. So far everyone's managed to pull back and agree to disagree because everyone has stayed respectful and we've managed to all self moderate. Don't be the person to change all that.


Ok, I'm sorry if I sounded like a troll. It wasn't at all my intention. I wasn't trying to force this new idea upon everyone or anything, just giving an alternative idea that happenned to pop into my head at that moment. As you said, we must keep the creative process going.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:59 pm 
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LLeRRoux wrote:
Ok, I'm sorry if I sounded like a troll. It wasn't at all my intention. I wasn't trying to force this new idea upon everyone or anything, just giving an alternative idea that happenned to pop into my head at that moment. As you said, we must keep the creative process going.


Well in that case I'm sorry if I misread you, it just came off sarcastic when I read it since it was sort of derailing the thread. If it is a legit idea lets discuss it but maybe in its own thread so this one doesn't become cluttered with all the non-dice ideas?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:57 pm 
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Kris Knives wrote:
Well in that case I'm sorry if I misread you, it just came off sarcastic when I read it since it was sort of derailing the thread.


I see how that can be confusing.

Back on topic:
Another con to cards would be that you need to shuffle the deck every time you draw a card, or else the randomness of results will be skewed until you do.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:22 pm 
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shuffleing in its self isnt really that much of a problem, its just like rolling the dice, but, like I said above, there are many ways to cheat while doing it.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:33 pm 
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Okay I've looked into this a little and there are many way to cheat with dice too. In fact dice are easier to cheat with if you just put a tiny bit of effort into cheating. It is pretty easy to get loaded dice and fairly hard to spot. In fact the default dice we use (the ones with the holes to denote number) are already loaded favoring 1's. Additionally their are several rolling techniques you can use to optimize your chance or to use slight of hand to make it appear you've rolled dice when you in fact haven't. If someone is good enough to stack a deck or palm a card with an opponent watching I think we should assume they are capable of doing the same with dice.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:14 pm 
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dice accually favor 6s. when I said cheat, I didnt mean by using fake dice or cards. Its alot simpler to cheat with cards, as all you have to do is discreatly change the order in which they appear

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:49 am 
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The 6's cause friction which causes them to end up on 1's more often then not, at least according to videos I've seen on the subject. Really though that is besides the point.

Actually if that is all you are worried about, well I think I can put your fears to rest as I don't think that is even a factor. If you somehow catch your opponent sleeping or on a bathroom break and manage to stack the top card, which should be pretty hard to do since players should have zero reason to legitimately touch the deck when not doing a DP face off, we can stop this scenario. All we need to do is just say that that people should shuffle the deck before drawing instead of after. Problem solved.

Besides since the better DP powers are supposed to be able to manipulate the draw, a minor stacking the deck wouldn't even ensure you any advantage unless everyone was using vanilla powers.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:12 am 
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kk, That makes sense

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