Mechanic Idea: Dark Potential Powers Deck

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Kris Knives
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Mechanic Idea: Dark Potential Powers Deck

Post by Kris Knives » Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:52 am

I'd like to suggest as a way to help make DP different from shooting and melee that it run off of a card deck.

There would only need be one universal deck so no CCG elements to slow down or complicate the game. The cards in the deck would number 1-6 across multiple colors. Each ability would have a strong trump color that and a weak "fizzle" color. When one wishes to use a DP power both players draw a card from the deck (assuming the victem gets a defense) with high card winning. In the event of a tie defender wins unless the attacker has their trump color. Cover vs DP attacks would allow a unit to redraw a their card a number of times equal to their cover rating.

I'm sure you are asking why use a card deck instead of just more dice? Well because many games become more strategic when you have two mechanics to worry about instead of one. For example in League of Legends those two mechanics are magic damage and physical damage. If LoL just had generic damage then it would be a simple matter racing armor vs attack damage with no strategy. By having two damage types teams must be more careful and take into considering what enemies are a threat to them and which damage type they deal.

Applying that to Dark Potential by having standard attacks us dice and special abilities use the card deck you similarly create strategic choices and force people to consider balanced armies and opens up design space. And design space in a game is very important keep in mind. The more design space you have the more unit options you can give people, the more you can define the various factions in the game mechanics rather and the more your game can define itself as different from it competition. DP leaders could offer all sorts of ways to stack the card draw and manipulate the outcome and allow for more powerful or interesting dice effects knowing they can be checked by DP units. If Matt can find a way to take it one step further and make melee something a little different too then you have even more options and design space.

Imagine if I'm playing reclaimers and my troops have nano-armor which makes enemies re-roll 6's when making attacks against them. If you use all dice nano-armor is simply and outstanding ability that makes pretty much everything that attacks miserable. Now on the other hand if DP powers use cards instead of dice that simply makes may troops very strong against shooting weapons but doesn't help them at all against DP attacks. When building my army I'll have to consider how much DP to bring in case I run into units with really strong defense vs my normal shots.

The end result is a more strategic game in which I need to carefully consider if my nano-armored troops are exposed to DP effects and how risky that exposure is. A DP user that just has a simple high card draw is much less risky than one that can manipulate the deck. I feel this sort of soft counter system could really add strategy to the game and help prevent it from becoming all about cover bonuses without making the game totally decided by troop choices. Further it would add an important element of strategy in the game.

I might hold back my nano-armor units but blitz the rest of my squads, taking heavy losses, in an attempt to kill off the enemies DP units then bring in my nano-armored guys when they are relatively safe and use them to make up early losses or allow them to hold objectives more safely the other units.

Lastly I think it would really help develop the flavor of DP attacks as something different and special compared to simply shooting a gun. It would make DP effect stand out more and a unique part of the game.

Anyway just a suggestion, I realize it might not be the sort of thing that is right for Dark Potential but I thought it was worth discussing. Feel free to praise it or shoot it down as you see fit.

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Re: Mechanic Idea: Dark Potential Powers Deck

Post by Wiouds » Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:49 pm

I talk about cards one time and someone whine about that fact they do not want to play a game where the cards could go missing.

What about using a poker deck? Have it be suits that increase the skill is strong or weak to.

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Re: Mechanic Idea: Dark Potential Powers Deck

Post by Kris Knives » Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:25 pm

Wiouds wrote:I talk about cards one time and someone whine about that fact they do not want to play a game where the cards could go missing.

What about using a poker deck? Have it be suits that increase the skill is strong or weak to.
Hmmm good point. I was thinking a slimmed down Uno deck (hence the reference to color) since that was what I had near me with at the time I wrote this but poker deck would work just as well if not better.

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Re: Mechanic Idea: Dark Potential Powers Deck

Post by slaughtergames » Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:01 pm

hmmm... interesting..

i'm kinda on the edge about the cards; i want to like it, but it's wierd... as for your story about dual mechanics and stuff... the rules could also specify "only shooting rerolls 6s" but i see that that's kinda boring :)

i also made a proposal for a DP mechanic here: http://www.miniwargaming.com/forum/view ... 22&t=66686

that is more based around what it could do if the power succeeds... maybe merging these two ideas will give us something really nice!
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"i did research, to find out how to minimize the randomness of the shock-attack gun."
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Kris Knives
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Re: Mechanic Idea: Dark Potential Powers Deck

Post by Kris Knives » Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:56 pm

Hmm well after reading over your purposal I have a few thoughts.

-It is a flavorful idea, that could bring some interesting strategy to the game and potential (dark potential lol) but it is too complicated for smooth game play right now and that kills it. I think for people to enjoy its flavor and the strategic elements it brings we would need to find a way to streamline or simplify the way it works. Right now it sounds like it would be too technical to really enjoy it.
-Even streamlined due to its unquiely strategic nature it would be better as faction mechanic like Faith is in 40k. I could see it being X'llanthos mechanic but don't think it would be good to try and apply it to all DP users. Also since it requires a unit to have multiple powers that limits it design space so putting it on a high DP faction would let use it a lot more freely without running into balance limitations.
-The idea tries to get too detailed on too much speculation. I would love to start grinding out details but that just isn't where DP is right now. Until Matt gets back to DP and starts spelling out more details I think we should step back to be a bit focused on a high level concept of how it does things rather then worrying what it does.

As for a hybrid I'm not sure it is really a matter of combining the ideas,

Mine is mostly a game mechanic suggestion (a rule determining how one plays the game) where as yours, as I'm reading it, is more of a play mechanic (something that creates the strategy one uses to win).

I do have a few ideas how you could use a card system to possibly streamline such an idea if you are interested in discussing that but why don't we continue that discussion in the reverse DP thread?

{Please forgive my spelling in this post, I couldn't get word to open for some reason to properly spell check this and was too tired to run it through a spell check online.}

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slaughtergames
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Re: Mechanic Idea: Dark Potential Powers Deck

Post by slaughtergames » Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:10 pm

i thought again about your nano-armour story... this is what i realized:

if the cards roll no dice, how can they do damage? since all mechanics so far only work with dice, we would have to come up with something completely new...

and btw there's nothing wrong with your spelling mate ;)
"i buy me new deffkopta!!"
"waaaagh!"
"i did research, to find out how to minimize the randomness of the shock-attack gun."
"huh?"
"waaaagh!"
"WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGH!!"

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Kris Knives
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Re: Mechanic Idea: Dark Potential Powers Deck

Post by Kris Knives » Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:40 pm

slaughtergames wrote:i thought again about your nano-armour story... this is what i realized:

if the cards roll no dice, how can they do damage? since all mechanics so far only work with dice, we would have to come up with something completely new...

and btw there's nothing wrong with your spelling mate ;)
Actually not necessarily. Since the game works on an attack/save system people could still save using dice if that is the way you wanted to handle it.

However I suggested (and I'd stress this would have to be play tested to see how it effects flow and balance) that when being attacked by a power they defender would draw a card to save, much the way with a dice attack the attacker rolls to hit then the defender rolls to save.

So I attack with say zero point energy. I draw a card I get a 5 of hearts.

Then the defender draws a card to try and save vs the attack with the high card winning.

Why not just have them roll though? Well because again separation of mechanics. This makes a strong DP unit, one which can manipulate the draw in some way, also naturally resistant to DP attacks since they'll be able to manipulate the defense. This may make it desirable to snipe a strong DP unit forcing them to roll off where will presumably be weaker.

The end result hopefully is a duel mechanic system that uses up minimal memory space (how much people need to remember) while opening up a lot of design space and giving DP a different feel from shooting.

That isn't the only way to do it, but that is what I had in mind. If you've though of something else I'd be interested to hear it, more thoughts and options here for Matt to choose from would be a good thing.

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Re: Mechanic Idea: Dark Potential Powers Deck

Post by folifurieuz » Wed Dec 28, 2011 1:42 am

I quite like the idea: it reminds me of a p&p RPG called Deadlands - they use a poker set - which uses cards to determine initiative in combat. The system you (Knives) initially proposed though seemed to essentially be rock-paper-scissors with a few doses of mathematics and adrenaline pumped into it. That's not to suggest I don't like it: I love both those things a great deal.

All this to say that I have a vague recollection that Matt explicitly stated no cards, only dice. Now I haven't been on the forum in a while and frankly I should have checked if he retracted that statement (assuming he made it; my memory is just awful...) but I still have a feeling that he won't be too keen. I could be completely wrong here: statistically speaking I am more often wrong that right. Just thought it should be mentioned.
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Re: Mechanic Idea: Dark Potential Powers Deck

Post by Wiouds » Wed Dec 28, 2011 12:27 pm

I think it is more about not wanting them to need many items to play the game like deck of printed cards.

I used poker chips as markers for my play test.

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Re: Mechanic Idea: Dark Potential Powers Deck

Post by jwerulez » Sun Jan 01, 2012 10:49 pm

just to confirm on what folifurieuz said. Matt specifically said no cards and I have whatched the dpdd's each mor than ouce and Matt has not with drawn his statment about no cards, Dice only

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Re: Mechanic Idea: Dark Potential Powers Deck

Post by Wiouds » Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:55 am

jwerulez wrote:just to confirm on what folifurieuz said. Matt specifically said no cards and I have whatched the dpdd's each mor than ouce and Matt has not with drawn his statment about no cards, Dice only
As I said before I think Matt was talking about the cards printed for the game it self. I am sure a poker deck would not be too much of a problem.

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Re: Mechanic Idea: Dark Potential Powers Deck

Post by slaughtergames » Mon Jan 02, 2012 11:09 am

i'm not sure how any people would like a poker deck. it kindof destroyes the feel of a wargame... (at least i don't like it)
"i buy me new deffkopta!!"
"waaaagh!"
"i did research, to find out how to minimize the randomness of the shock-attack gun."
"huh?"
"waaaagh!"
"WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGH!!"

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Kris Knives
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Re: Mechanic Idea: Dark Potential Powers Deck

Post by Kris Knives » Mon Jan 02, 2012 3:48 pm

Well Matt asked for any sort of crazy ideas in his first video, so that is that attitude I've taken.

I figure if Matt doesn't like any idea he can just say so when he gets back.

As for the cards. If this did become a part of the game you could always make it compatable with a standard deck of cards in some way and then sell a more flavorful "official" card decks with DP art on them so the game is easily accessable but also offers something for more involved gamers.

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Re: Mechanic Idea: Dark Potential Powers Deck

Post by slaughtergames » Mon Jan 02, 2012 4:16 pm

hmm... I re-read your original post.. and i had an idea:

you said two players would draw-off, so to speak, and then if the attacker wins the power succedes. that would mean two things:

1.) the defender get's a defense. i don't see how you get a defense from DP sucking all heat away around you, making you levitate, or crushing you. (unless the model is a DP user itself)

2.) the power always has the exact same effect. though would it be a stable technology? is the environment always filled with the same amount of energy?

that said, i would propose this:
(the deck has three colors in this setting)

you declare what power is used. you draw a card. (opponent doesn't)
the card you draw has a certain number, which determines the effectiveness of the attack.
a positive bonus or even a multiplier is applied if the "trump color" is drawn, but, a negative one if the "frizzle color" is drawn. the third color does nothing extra.

obviously how a power works out still needs to be "invented"...
----------------------------------
now, DP user vs. DP user would be different. if the "defender" reacts in time,(apply "initiative test?") he get's a defense, which would come in the form of a draw-off, as kris knives explained in the first post.
"i buy me new deffkopta!!"
"waaaagh!"
"i did research, to find out how to minimize the randomness of the shock-attack gun."
"huh?"
"waaaagh!"
"WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGH!!"

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Re: Mechanic Idea: Dark Potential Powers Deck

Post by jwerulez » Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:54 pm

I'm not trying to be a troll/buzz-kill, but Matt said no cards, and I have looked over DPDDs for a loop hole in that statement, and I have been uncucsessful.
When he said no cards, he ment no cards, ecxept for the use of stat managment like in warmachine

Also in my personal opinion haveing cards would take out of the randomness of the game, because if a person has a potential energy army style then it might completely remove the randomness by having them draw all the good cards in the first half then completely ruinn their startegy by not being able to use potential energy
Also I just personally like dice more than cards... cards just feel a little childish for me

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