Can animals use core tactics?

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Kris Knives
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Re: Can animals use core tactics?

Post by Kris Knives » Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:08 am

Wiouds wrote:I was thinking during a tactical split the squad is still one squad but it just some space between two or three pieces.
I agree.
Wiouds wrote:I can see using tactical split when area attack happen. When my forces are getting attack my artillery, I would want to spread my forcing out but that would reduce my attacking strength.
Hmmm well that is kind of a new application/direction. I was just thinking of using this as a way to minimize losses when forced to move out of cover and through enemy fire, which would give people more options for aggressive game play vs. suppression and overwatch which both encourage defensive gameplay. Allowing the tactical split to be used defensively wasn't something I had considered before.

I wanted to sleep on it before I responded. So after thinking about it I think this would be okay as long as it required a command check from the group so it isn't a flawless defense.

So your squad is targeted. Before the enemy rolls you spend a command point to tell the squad to scatter. They make a command check, if they pass the squad splits and moves maybe 1-3 inches apart (depending on another die roll for how far they can scatter). At that point the attacker rolls for hit and drift. Next turn the divided squad has to form back up and regroup.

If the squad fails its command check they didn't move fast enough to get out of the way of the blast.
Wiouds wrote:edited to add:
I say that until a squad is reformed or all but one sub squad is destroyed, the player must pay the command points.
I see your point but I disagree for two reasons.

First I think these should be short tactical maneuvers so we don't make the board to convoluted and complicated. Nor do we want to dissolve the feeling of group to group combat of the game. A squad should finish the move and reform quickly to keep the flow of combat.

Second I don't know how you would enforce this. If I run out of command points do the squads just flee? Are they suppressed until I pay command points? Do they just run head long at each other until they form up? Now don’t get me wrong, everyone here seems very smart so I'm sure you could come up with a decent rule to handle this but I think it would be just simpler to make these on turn moves so giving them the option to keep squad split just seems problematic.

Also be making sure squads need to reform quickly you don't need more rules about keep them from moving too far apart since they won't have the chance to move far enough apart that they couldn't form up again on the next turn (baring some crazy DP effect which teleports one halfway across the board).

I guess I'd ask what sort of situations are you thinking about where you would want to have a squad split up for more then one turn?

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Re: Can animals use core tactics?

Post by Wiouds » Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:24 pm

That right spread my troops at for To area attacks would be helpful.

Let say I want a squad to hold a position but the only cover is too small to protect the entire squad as a whole squad but it could protect them as sub squads. Can I use the cover like that?

My point is that sometimes the sub squads may not be able to reform that turn.

Let say a player has a squad (squad A) and the player want Squad A to attack a squad (squad B) that is using overwatch. Also, squad A is with in the overwatch angle of Squad B and Squad B has a farther range than Squad A. If squad A move as a single squad then the entire squad A would be hit by the overwatch. If player does a tactical split Squad A into two sub squads (squad A1 and squad A2) then the two subs squads can move into a better range. What if Squad A1 is overwatch and must stop moving? The means that the two sub squad of squad A can not regroup at the end of the turn.

If they player is unable to pay for the squad being split or fail a command roll then the squads as if they are out of range of each other and will focus on safely regrouping.

edited to add:
I say for a tactical split the player must state the goal before the tactical split will happen. The sub Squads will act to active that goal or regroup. Even if it take five turns, the controlling player can not change the orders of the sub Squads.

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Kris Knives
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Re: Can animals use core tactics?

Post by Kris Knives » Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:56 pm

Wiouds wrote:That right spread my troops at for To area attacks would be helpful.

Let say I want a squad to hold a position but the only cover is too small to protect the entire squad as a whole squad but it could protect them as sub squads. Can I use the cover like that?
I thought like in Warhammer if 50% of your squad is covered they all are covered which would remove the need to subsquad for cover like that. If that isn't the case then I agree using subsquads to grab some cover is a legitimate application.
Wiouds wrote:My point is that sometimes the sub squads may not be able to reform that turn.

Let say a player has a squad (squad A) and the player want Squad A to attack a squad (squad B) that is using overwatch. Also, squad A is with in the overwatch angle of Squad B and Squad B has a farther range than Squad A. If squad A move as a single squad then the entire squad A would be hit by the overwatch. If player does a tactical split Squad A into two sub squads (squad A1 and squad A2) then the two subs squads can move into a better range. What if Squad A1 is overwatch and must stop moving? The means that the two sub squad of squad A can not regroup at the end of the turn.

If they player is unable to pay for the squad being split or fail a command roll then the squads as if they are out of range of each other and will focus on safely regrouping.
I agree sometimes squads will be unable to regroup, I just think the fact that subsquads can only move until they regroup is sufficiently limiting, and that we probably don't need to add a lot more rules around it.
Wiouds wrote:edited to add:
I say for a tactical split the player must state the goal before the tactical split will happen. The sub Squads will act to active that goal or regroup. Even if it take five turns, the controlling player can not change the orders of the sub Squads.
That sound reasonable on the one hand but on the other it might be problematic to tell your enemy what the unit's objectives are. Once again I cling to my limited to movement defense as sufficiently limiting to prevent problems.

I see your points but I'm not convinced, and that tell me we've probably done as much theorizing as we can on this subject. I think at this point we should either try and get Matt involved by asking him directly (he may after all just nix the idea), revisit this once Matt starts defining the game more and/or do some test playing and see how it effects the existing game and come back to this armed with some experience.

I think we can agree the core idea seem sounds, but most of our concerns are about unusual cases when things don't go to plan but yet somehow one or both sub-squads don't get killed. While I think 99% of the time these things will be a moot issue because one subsquad will just end up dead, I do agree we should figure something out for that 1% of time they beat the odds.

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Re: Can animals use core tactics?

Post by Wiouds » Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:13 pm

Kris Knives wrote:
Wiouds wrote:That right spread my troops at for To area attacks would be helpful.

Let say I want a squad to hold a position but the only cover is too small to protect the entire squad as a whole squad but it could protect them as sub squads. Can I use the cover like that?
I thought like in Warhammer if 50% of your squad is covered they all are covered which would remove the need to subsquad for cover like that. If that isn't the case then I agree using subsquads to grab some cover is a legitimate application.
I was thinking more along if a squad is attack with some member in cover and some not in cover then the squad is split into sub squads. Then the attacking squad can split his own squad for that attack to attack the defending sub squads. After the attack(s), the sub squads return to a single squad.

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