COMMAND POINTS

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slaughtergames
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COMMAND POINTS

Post by slaughtergames » Sat Oct 08, 2011 1:54 pm

ok people, I thought command points were already sorted out and i couldn't find the topic... now somebody told me that CP are speculation!! :shock:

so let's get command points of the ground here.
note: i'm not yet taking sub-commanders into account yet.

it seems really straitforward to me.:
-the command model has a certain amount of command points. (i would say 5)
-he can spend those on any friendly unit in range (units equipped with radios can always receive CP's, regardless of distance)

every unit can do ONE free action every turn:
-move
-shoot
-attack (only if it already was in CC)
-others that i feel that i'm missing at the moment.

then COMMAND POINTS grant extra/special actions:
-move again
-shoot again (probably not, but i'll put it up here anyway)
-enter overwatch
-apply suppressing fire
-throw grenades
-try to leave a CC
-again other things that i feel i'm forgetting.

and then every unit has a max. amount of CP's it can receive. i would say just 1 or 2, but we could also specify that per unit (once we have those)

that's really all there is! tell me what you think.
"i buy me new deffkopta!!"
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"i did research, to find out how to minimize the randomness of the shock-attack gun."
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Wiouds
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Re: COMMAND POINTS

Post by Wiouds » Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:11 pm

There is not a clear ideal what CP is for.

I think the ideal is to get the move and attacks working then see how CP work with them. The same for abilities.

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Re: COMMAND POINTS

Post by slaughtergames » Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:26 pm

Wiouds wrote:There is not a clear ideal what CP is for.

I think the ideal is to get the move and attacks working then see how CP work with them. The same for abilities.
my post above is a clear idea as to how command points would work. please tell me whether you like it or not, what you would change, or your own idea. telling me that there is no clear idea helps nobody
"i buy me new deffkopta!!"
"waaaagh!"
"i did research, to find out how to minimize the randomness of the shock-attack gun."
"huh?"
"waaaagh!"
"WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGH!!"

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slaughtergames
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Re: COMMAND POINTS

Post by slaughtergames » Sat Oct 08, 2011 4:05 pm

UPDATE:

charging (into CC) is also a special ability that needs command points.

and i want to add some combination restrictions:

after shooting you can't:
-throw grenades
-shoot again
-charge into CC
-apply suppressing fire, as that replaces the stock shooting.

after attacking you can't try to leave the combat (and as long as a unit is in combat, it can't do anything else than attack or try to break from combat)

please PLEASE put in CONSTRUCTIVE replies..
"i buy me new deffkopta!!"
"waaaagh!"
"i did research, to find out how to minimize the randomness of the shock-attack gun."
"huh?"
"waaaagh!"
"WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGH!!"

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Re: COMMAND POINTS

Post by slaughtergames » Sat Oct 08, 2011 4:22 pm

another thought just occurred to me:

if a unit has to receive command points from the command model, does this mean that the commander always has to activate first to distribute command points?

or can a unit within its command range simply claim a CP if it is in range? that would solve the problem i think, but it seems awkward.
"i buy me new deffkopta!!"
"waaaagh!"
"i did research, to find out how to minimize the randomness of the shock-attack gun."
"huh?"
"waaaagh!"
"WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGH!!"

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Re: COMMAND POINTS

Post by jwerulez » Sun Jan 01, 2012 2:28 am

I like how it is going so far, but I would like to place some insite( I know my spelling is bad).
My brother and I are making an adeptation of 40k using a similare format to that of warmachine or hordes-like. I came up with the idea that the commander( we dont have subcomanders yet) start the game with a number of command points( for example 4) then each turn can add 2 command points until it reaches it's max( for example 10).
All the time while this is happening the commander can use the command points to use abilities such as flare( if has the ability) to mark an enemy unit so that all ranged attacks made on said unit gain +2 to attack rolls( therefor making them easier to hit).
The commander may also allocate the points out to the solos ( our game is based around using plenty of different types of solos with different abilities), but for this game it might be more unit so the commander will alocate out to units like you said.
I like look forward to any insight on my idea

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Re: COMMAND POINTS

Post by slaughtergames » Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:09 am

interesting. I had imagined that the commander would just have a set amount every turn. (say 5) any unused points would just be lost. but stacking (like you said) could be fun? i'm just not sure when we would need 10 CP on one turn? (eventhought that depends on how the mechanic works..)
"i buy me new deffkopta!!"
"waaaagh!"
"i did research, to find out how to minimize the randomness of the shock-attack gun."
"huh?"
"waaaagh!"
"WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGH!!"

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Re: COMMAND POINTS

Post by Wiouds » Sun Jan 01, 2012 10:55 am

I would be careful about making the command points being a pool system that allow the units to take action. Even right now there is a good amount the player need to remember about squads like which squad had be activated, which is in overwatch and which is suppressed. I say each squad gets to move and another action per turn.

I was thinking that command points are for enhancement and counter. One thing I would say cost command point is if you need to roll something like a 13 to get 1 hit then you pay command points to stop the attack. If a squad is suppressed then some faction can pay to make the squad no longer suppressed.

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Re: COMMAND POINTS

Post by jwerulez » Sun Jan 01, 2012 10:52 pm

Wiouds wrote:I was thinking that command points are for enhancement and counter. One thing I would say cost command point is if you need to roll something like a 13 to get 1 hit then you pay command points to stop the attack. If a squad is suppressed then some faction can pay to make the squad no longer suppressed.
This really beter describes what I was aiming for with the spend command points to help hit.

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Re: COMMAND POINTS

Post by slaughtergames » Mon Jan 02, 2012 11:20 am

Wiouds wrote:I would be careful about making the command points being a pool system that allow the units to take action. Even right now there is a good amount the player need to remember about squads like which squad had be activated, which is in overwatch and which is suppressed. I say each squad gets to move and another action per turn.
i don't think it's hard to remember how many CP's you have left...
I was thinking that command points are for enhancement and counter. One thing I would say cost command point is if you need to roll something like a 13 to get 1 hit then you pay command points to stop the attack. If a squad is suppressed then some faction can pay to make the squad no longer suppressed.
so what you're saying is:
-2 free actions, one is movement (pre-determined order?)
-command points for special actions or enhanced actions.

fair enough, but i think there should be a limit to the amount of actions 1 squad can do each turn... f.ex.: move, shoot, run ,shoot, explode, bla bla.... you get it.

i think we're kind of agreeing already
"i buy me new deffkopta!!"
"waaaagh!"
"i did research, to find out how to minimize the randomness of the shock-attack gun."
"huh?"
"waaaagh!"
"WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGH!!"

Wiouds
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Re: COMMAND POINTS

Post by Wiouds » Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:04 pm

I was playing with 4 squad on each side and I lost track of what squad has been activated, which squad is in overwatch, and which has been suppressed. That is a good amount to keep track of. I do not want to deal with pool(s) from a number of squads while trying to keep track of current squads action.

For activation, I say a squad can only attack once. Some action take an entire activation to do let getting into an overwatch. Instead of run the squad can move twice for the activation.

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Re: COMMAND POINTS

Post by LLeRRoux » Mon Jan 02, 2012 1:13 pm

I recently made a playtest (will post more details about it sometime soon) while playing around with the rules, mostly command points, since this is probably the least defined part of the rules, other than CC.

The way I had it was:
-The commander had a set amount of command points (for this playtest, it was 5) and he regains his points at the beginning of every turn. Points left from the previous turn are lost.
-Any unit within 12" of the commander or of a model with the "radio link" rule (idea stolen from this thread, I gave that special rule to the snipers). This makes positionning of your solo models alot more important in order to have more units in range.
-A unit can make one action per turn and must use a command point in order to make more actions. The commanders were allowed to make 2 free actions.
-A unit may use a command point to make one of the following actions:
/-Shoot
/-Move half their movement speed (this is to avoid for a unit to move 24" behind the enemy, shooting them down while ignoring their cover, then move another 6" out of the open. This would take up 5 command points, but its a great way to get rid of a n enemy squad fast. Not exactly what you want to see happen.)
/-Charge into CC, however I didn't get a chance to use this.
/-Later on, it can be used for some special abilitys.
/-The commander may use a command point during his activation to unsupress a squad wihin 12".
/-Enter overwatch (Didn't use, because... Well, I don't know why I didn't use it, but I didn't.

Things I have observed:
-Units depend on being within 12" of a commqnder or a solo in order to be useful. There isn't much you can do with only 1 action, unless you're in a perfect shooting position.
-I was able to kill a commander just by moving a squad into the open, shooting 3 times, and getting back into my heavy cover. (In other words, the current system allows too much shooting in one activation.)
-The player must strategically choose to allocate his command points, thus allowing him to help all of his squads equally, or put all his points on one unit to do something crazy as stated on the previous point.
-Half movement speed when using a point made it harder to pull of crazy stuff as stated above.
-Radio link rule works pretty well.
-Points are esay to keep track of, just use a die.

Possible fixes:
-Give units 2 free actions.
-Larger rangeto give command points. (Could vary from one commander to another)
-Only allow to shoot once per activation.
-Have a limit of points a unit can take per activation (Could also be different depending on which unit)


On a side note,
Wiouds wrote:I was playing with 4 squad on each side and I lost track of what squad has been activated, which squad is in overwatch, and which has been suppressed. That is a good amount to keep track of. I do not want to deal with pool(s) from a number of squads while trying to keep track of current squads action.
It is indeed hard to keep track of who has activated without putting some sort of marker near the unit.

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slaughtergames
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Re: COMMAND POINTS

Post by slaughtergames » Mon Jan 02, 2012 3:50 pm

i can see that it is hard to keep track which units have activated...

i don't think a unit should even be allowed to shoot 3 times in a row.. it seems a little.., well, "untactical". we got rid of big squads because we want tactics. now don't tell me one unit can shoot 3 times lol... what i would propose is:

-an action can be performed twice at most, free action-CP action.
-a squad may not use two command points for the same two actions in one activation.
f.ex.: not: move(free), shoot(CP), shoot(CP), duck 'n cover(CP)
but rather: shoot,(free) move(CP), shoot (CP), duck 'n cover(CP)

you can still shoot twice, but even if you spend a million CP you still can't shoot more than twice. (or anything for that matter)
I hope i made this understandable..

I like the radio link idea; it kindof brings back some cohesion to an army, without clumping it completely around the commander... and it prevents snipers from just sitting in a corner where nobody can reach them... unless the army does so too...
/-Move half their movement speed (this is to avoid for a unit to move 24" behind the enemy, shooting them down while ignoring their cover, then move another 6" out of the open. This would take up 5 command points, but its a great way to get rid of a n enemy squad fast. Not exactly what you want to see happen.)

wow. how does the unit move 24"?
"i buy me new deffkopta!!"
"waaaagh!"
"i did research, to find out how to minimize the randomness of the shock-attack gun."
"huh?"
"waaaagh!"
"WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGH!!"

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LLeRRoux
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Re: COMMAND POINTS

Post by LLeRRoux » Mon Jan 02, 2012 4:41 pm

slaughtergames wrote:i can see that it is hard to keep track which units have activated...

i don't think a unit should even be allowed to shoot 3 times in a row.. it seems a little.., well, "untactical". we got rid of big squads because we want tactics. now don't tell me one unit can shoot 3 times lol... what i would propose is:
My thoughts exactly.

-an action can be performed twice at most, free action-CP action.
-a squad may not use two command points for the same two actions in one activation.
f.ex.: not: move(free), shoot(CP), shoot(CP), duck 'n cover(CP)
but rather: shoot,(free) move(CP), shoot (CP), duck 'n cover(CP)
Could also work.

you can still shoot twice, but even if you spend a million CP you still can't shoot more than twice. (or anything for that matter)
I hope i made this understandable.. Yes

I like the radio link idea; it kindof brings back some cohesion to an army, without clumping it completely around the commander... and it prevents snipers from just sitting in a corner where nobody can reach them... unless the army does so too...
/-Move half their movement speed (this is to avoid for a unit to move 24" behind the enemy, shooting them down while ignoring their cover, then move another 6" out of the open. This would take up 5 command points, but its a great way to get rid of a n enemy squad fast. Not exactly what you want to see happen.)

wow. how does the unit move 24"?
6" free + 3 CP to move 18" (3x6")

That is... If you allow to move a full 6" with a CP.

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Re: COMMAND POINTS

Post by evilgreenthing » Mon Jan 02, 2012 5:02 pm

I dont think command points should be an extremly central part to the game, because if we do, it will ened up being warmachine, except without the giant awesome machines. I think that the points should be used for special actions. My idea is that some units or solos would have powers that require CP to activate. this activation would replace the shooting/ and or move actions that the unit could do that turn
sincerely EGT

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