Close Combat mechanics

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should models attack simultaneously or only during their own activation?

simultaneously
8
53%
only during own activation
7
47%
 
Total votes: 15

Wiouds
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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by Wiouds » Fri Oct 07, 2011 4:19 pm

I do not like to make a player be force to have a unit into CC. Having unit with a might of 1 fighting an enemy who armor of 8 is not fun. Also it is not much fun if the game take away control from me.

I keep asking why should a unit that shoots before being attack in cc be allowed to fight back? They already attack that turn so they should not be allowed to attack for a second time that turn on their own

It add more data that need to be keep track of and can slow the game down.

Why do we need a third nested phase in the game for CC combat which is still a squad to squad attack?here is no reason to add a mini phase into the game.
We have a turn which all players take turn activating one squad at a time until all squads been activated.
Then we have the phase which is a single squad take their action.

Also allowing an unit to fight back would make cc weak.
Lets say there are two squads Squad 1 and Squad 2. Both with 5 squad members but Squad 2 only has cc.
Player A has Squad 1 attack Squad 2 for 2 kills.
Player B has Squad 2 attack Squad 1.
If Squad 1 is allow to attack the same time as Squad 2 then they kill even more of Squad 2.
Even if Squad 2 could shoot it would not be fair since they fought in CC and they get attack because of it. Then again if Squad 1 can attack at the same time I would just have Squad 2 shoot even if it much weaker than cc.

fast?
It increase the number of attacks but adds more overhead to the entire system which includes extra data. Tracking the data about who is in CC can become confusing. Something that can slow the game down.

Deadly?
yes but only for those that CC in the game.

fun?
It removed control from the player and that is not fun for me. Also it would not fun for a much weaker CC focus squads like many of the beasts will most likely be.

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slaughtergames
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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by slaughtergames » Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:05 pm

Wiouds wrote:I do not like to make a player be force to have a unit into CC. Having unit with a might of 1 fighting an enemy who armor of 8 is not fun. Also it is not much fun if the game take away control from me.the controlling player can choose to have his unit leave the close combat. there is your control sir!

I keep asking why should a unit that shoots before being attack in cc be allowed to fight back?it doesn't. if a unit already activated before it got charged, it does nothing for the rest of the turn as normal. if it hadn't already activated, it can now choose from the two following options: 1:counter-attack;the unit activates immediately and it gets to fight back. this counts as it's activation for this turn, though it can now ONLY fight back, it cannot leave the combat, etc. 2:wait for its regular activation. now it has all options available:leave combat, shoot, run etc. They already attack that turn so they should not be allowed to attack for a second time that turn on their own

It add more data that need to be keep track of and can slow the game down.
what "data" is actually added when a player rolls a couple more dice, and then removes some models as casualties?
Why do we need a third nested phase in the game for CC combat which is still a squad to squad attack?there is no separate phase. they simply count as activated immediately (if the controlling player chooses so. here is no reason to add a mini phase into the game.
We have a turn which all players take turn activating one squad at a time until all squads been activated.
Then we have the phase which is a single squad take their action.

Also allowing an unit to fight back would make cc weak. no, it gives the defenders a better chance of survival
Lets say there are two squads Squad 1 and Squad 2. Both with 5 squad members but Squad 2 only has cc.
Player A has Squad 1 attack Squad 2 for 2 kills.i assume you mean "shoot"?
Player B has Squad 2 attack Squad 1.i assume you mean "assault"?
If Squad 1 is allow to attack the same time as Squad 2 then they kill even more of Squad 2.since they already shot, they aren't allowed to attack back. if they had wished to do so, they whouldn't have activated before they got charged. thus they couldn't have killed 2 guys with shooting.
Even if Squad 2 could shoot it would not be fair since they fought in CC and they get attack because of it. Then again if Squad 1 can attack at the same time I would just have Squad 2 shoot even if it much weaker than cc.

fast?
It increase the number of attacks but adds more overheadwhat do you mean with "overhead"? to the entire system which includes extra data. Tracking the data about who is in CC can become confusing.models that are in melee are in base-to-base contact. models that aren't in melee aren't in base-to-base. Something that can slow the game down.

Deadly?
yes but only for those that CC in the game.shooting is already deadly "for those that shoot" lol.... sorry, but this argument is kinda ridiculous, no offence....

fun?
It removed control from the player and that is not fun for me.i explained you earlier that it doesn't remove control... Also it would not fun for a much weaker CC focus squads like many of the beasts will most likely be.
my editing is red

all in all you didn't convince me at all..... sorry.
"i buy me new deffkopta!!"
"waaaagh!"
"i did research, to find out how to minimize the randomness of the shock-attack gun."
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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by CptYellow » Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:17 pm

ok, I'll try and make this response as brief as possible...
Wiouds wrote:I do not like to make a player be force to have a unit into CC. Having unit with a might of 1 fighting an enemy who armor of 8 is not fun. Also it is not much fun if the game take away control from me.
I'm sorry, but if you charge into CC then you are in CC... don't know why that is FORCING the player into CC. Same goes for defender, if you allowed your unit to be charged, then you are in CC, your fault, not the game's. It has nothing to do with control. Besides, there is nothing to say that a unit won't have the ability or option to leave CC on it's activation (likely with a penalty of some sort) if it so chooses.
Wiouds wrote:I keep asking why should a unit that shoots before being attack in cc be allowed to fight back? They already attack that turn so they should not be allowed to attack for a second time that turn on their own
Two reasons. 1. Most other games allow this, most notably BOTH 40K and Fantasy, and I have NEVER heard it complained about. 2. If you don't allow it, then you open a can of worms when it comes to tactics. You suddenly make a player choose between shooting or waiting to be charged. You'll get a lot of units just sittin' around starin at each other sayin' "I'm not shooting, you might charge me." and the others saying it right back. Gameplay = YAWN. Also, if you shot, you activated, which means you can't INITIATE CC. So it's not unfair at all if you as the attacker waited until after the defending unit had activated to charge them.
Wiouds wrote:It add more data that need to be keep track of and can slow the game down.
Seriously? What data? Track what? Data wise it's no different, there's nothing extra to track.
Wiouds wrote:Why do we need a third nested phase in the game for CC combat which is still a squad to squad attack?here is no reason to add a mini phase into the game.
This is the only legit point that you have made. My argument for it is that it adds spice, variety to the game. Everything can't and shouldn't be exactly as the rest or you get a very lame end product. IMO.
Wiouds wrote:Also allowing an unit to fight back would make cc weak.
Lets say there are two squads Squad 1 and Squad 2. Both with 5 squad members but Squad 2 only has cc.
Player A has Squad 1 attack Squad 2 for 2 kills.
Player B has Squad 2 attack Squad 1.
If Squad 1 is allow to attack the same time as Squad 2 then they kill even more of Squad 2.
Even if Squad 2 could shoot it would not be fair since they fought in CC and they get attack because of it. Then again if Squad 1 can attack at the same time I would just have Squad 2 shoot even if it much weaker than cc.
This isn't accurate or even understandable. So I can't comment on it.
Wiouds wrote:fast?
It increase the number of attacks but adds more overhead to the entire system which includes extra data. Tracking the data about who is in CC can become confusing. Something that can slow the game down.
This is not correct. There is no extra data.
Wiouds wrote:Deadly?
yes but only for those that CC in the game.
Umm...... ok. We are talking only CC, so yeah.
Wiouds wrote:fun?
It removed control from the player and that is not fun for me. Also it would not fun for a much weaker CC focus squads like many of the beasts will most likely be.
I don't think it removes control, but that is an interpretation issue. Leave individual squad based stats out of it. BUT, a weak CC squad SHOULD be weak in CC.

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slaughtergames
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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by slaughtergames » Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:26 pm

another little summary of the mechanic so far:

roll to hit: 2d6 + CC skill + amount of men in squad - opp. DEF - opp. CC skill.
toll to wound: opp. ARM - CC strength

rule about attacking: (initiative wise)
if a unit get's charged, ask the question: "has it already activated?"

YES: the unit does nothing: since you only activate once a turn.
NO: the unit has two choices; counter-attack, or wait for it's regular activation.

COUNTER-ATTACK: the unit activates immediately. (this is the only exception to the rule that units take turn in getting activated.)it MUST fight, it immediately gets to attack, but cannot do anything else during that activation.

WAIT FOR IT'S REGULAR ACTIVATION:the unit activates at any point during the remainder of the turn. it does now have all options available to it: leave combat, shoot, run, throw grenades, etc. it can fight back, but anyone can understand that it's smarter to counter-attack if you want to do so.


proposal: I don't want to add a separate initiative stat, so I propose we simply use the CC skill to determine who get's to attack first. most basiinitiative have the same CC skill anyway, so it gives an advantage to more elite units/solo's. also I would propose that the charging unit get's a CC bonus for the sake of determining who attacks first on the turn it charges, though that bonus would only count for initiative, and not for determining hits. I imagine it being + 1 or 2...
Last edited by slaughtergames on Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by CptYellow » Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:27 pm

Ok, I'm going to list my second biggest complaint against the "other" way of doing close combat.

Problem: Activation sequence is likely going to be determined by a dice roll or such at the start of each round. If Player A charges Player B and player B has already activated that round, then Player A gets to attack and Player B doesn't. Next round comes and Player A wins the activation roll off. Player A then gets to attack a second time, meanwhile Player B has yet to have a single attack and is likely wiped out.

That in my opinion is a serious flaw in the mechanic and statisticly will be seen often.

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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by CptYellow » Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:32 pm

@slaughtergames - How are prolonged CC's dealt with? (i.e. a CC lasts through two rounds?) Also, I don't know if you noticed or not, but the activation choice doesn't really work. No one would be overly compelled to choose Counter-Attack, since they would get to activate right after the attacker went anyways because it is their turn. I think it would only work if the attack was simultaneous in nature if choosing to counter-attack (meaning both fight at once at full strength).

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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by slaughtergames » Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:36 pm

oh i'm sorry if i worded it confusingly. if a unit counter-attacks, it activates IMMEDIATELY. this means that they fight back simultaneously, and therefor attack without tacking losses first

every new turn you determine AGAIN whether or not the defenders get to attack.
this means that in that second turn the defenders can simply choose to counter-attack.

and planning your charges so that the defenders can't counter-attack would be a nice tactic assault a unit without it even hitting back in that first round of melee. it penalizes the defending player for not forseeing that his unit was going to be charged.
and, if you wait with charging your unit in for all the turn, it means your opponent get's to shoot it for all of that turn.
"i buy me new deffkopta!!"
"waaaagh!"
"i did research, to find out how to minimize the randomness of the shock-attack gun."
"huh?"
"waaaagh!"
"WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGH!!"

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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by CptYellow » Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:43 pm

would it be out of bounds to suggest using Speed/Movement Stats coupled with CC skill stats to determine initiative? I mean, fluff wise it makes sense that the faster more skilled warriors strike first. In my head anyway.

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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by Wiouds » Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:50 pm

@ slaughtergames
That is the combat that I like. I do not like the squad that get CC attack also allow to attack even if they have activated before.

As for initiative I say it made by the players.
Order from highest to lowest
Reaction - these are the squads waiting to react to an action. They get the highest in their reaction are trigger
Currently active squad this is the squad that the player is moving.
Squads that have not been activated
Squads that has been activated.

Remember a turn is where each player takes turn activating squads. Each player move one Squad at a time and then the next player moved one Squad.
This mean is a Squad shoot early in the turn they should not be allowed to attack a second time for that turn.

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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by CptYellow » Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:54 pm

slaughtergames wrote:oh i'm sorry if i worded it confusingly. if a unit counter-attacks, it activates IMMEDIATELY. this means that they fight back simultaneously, and therefor attack without tacking losses first
ok, then it is actually a choice. but I did just realize that this would interfere with the who attacks first charge bonus. Charging would need to infer a different type of bonus because attack order becomes irrelevant.
slaughtergames wrote:]every new turn you determine AGAIN whether or not the defenders get to attack.
this means that in that second turn the defenders can simply choose to counter-attack.
Makes sense, except you would have to track who attacked who if the combat prolongs through several rounds. but that probably wouldn't happen anyways.
slaughtergames wrote:and planning your charges so that the defenders can't counter-attack would be a nice tactic assault a unit without it even hitting back in that first round of melee. it penalizes the defending player for not forseeing that his unit was going to be charged.
and, if you wait with charging your unit in for all the turn, it means your opponent get's to shoot it for all of that turn.
this is true... but I still have a bad feeling that games would often degrade into a stick waving affair of both sides refusing to shoot because they might get charged. It could also mean that players more often opt to move out of charge range rather then shoot and the game then becomes a whole lot of Cat and Mouse and a lotta no killin.

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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by CptYellow » Fri Oct 07, 2011 6:01 pm

@Wiouds - I know how activations work. Also, you are mixing shooting and CC. If you already activated, then you can't activate again that round, therefore you cannot INITIATE any other form of attack. You do not get to attack again. However, if that squad gets charged by an opponent's squad then CC begins. It is in no way absurd to think that your squad should be allowed to defend itself in that CC. The only game that I have played that does not work this way is Warmachine, and I have NEVER heard someone complain about this... NEVER. So why is it suddenly such an issue with everyone? If it doesn't bother you in other games, why does it bother you if it were to be in DP?

I guess what I'm saying is that just because I pulled the trigger on my gun once doesn't mean I'm going to allow you to run up and pummel me to death without doing something about it. Take WHFB for instance, in Fantasy you can move, shoot, get charged, Stand and Shoot as a charge response, AND fight back in close combat... ALL in the same round of play. If that doesn't bother you then why does this?

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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by Wiouds » Fri Oct 07, 2011 6:11 pm

I have been saying there is no way that any squad can fight back if that squad second before fire.

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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by CptYellow » Fri Oct 07, 2011 6:22 pm

Wiouds wrote:I have been saying there is no way that any squad can fight back if that squad second before fire.
And I'm saying that it can. In combat you should always be aware of your surroundings, and this is easier to do when in a squad. So yeah, I am not going to agree with you so I'm not going to argue about it anymore.

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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by slaughtergames » Fri Oct 07, 2011 6:30 pm

CptYellow wrote:would it be out of bounds to suggest using Speed/Movement Stats coupled with CC skill stats to determine initiative? I mean, fluff wise it makes sense that the faster more skilled warriors strike first. In my head anyway.
no, that would be pretty logical.
Wiouds wrote:@ slaughtergames
That is the combat that I like. I do not like the squad that get CC attack also allow to attack even if they have activated before.
good that you like it. we could have avoided the hassle if you (and others) had read my (and somebody else's) posts to pages back :-(
Wiouds wrote:As for initiative I say it made by the players.
Order from highest to lowest
Reaction - these are the squads waiting to react to an action. They get the highest in their reaction are trigger
Currently active squad this is the squad that the player is moving.
Squads that have not been activated
Squads that has been activated.
that could very well work too.(for the sake of understanding, i'll describe how i interpret this. if i'm wrong, please correct me)
initiative would be, in a high-to-low order:
-unit's that prepared to get charged (only applies on the first round of combat)
-inactivated squads
-activated squads

this is actually pretty nice, since we don't have to add another stat.
Wiouds wrote:Remember a turn is where each player takes turn activating squads. Each player move one Squad at a time and then the next player moved one Squad.
This mean is a Squad shoot early in the turn they should not be allowed to attack a second time for that turn.
that's the whole point of the mechanic-summary thing that i posted. go back and read it?
CptYellow wrote:
slaughtergames wrote:oh i'm sorry if i worded it confusingly. if a unit counter-attacks, it activates IMMEDIATELY. this means that they fight back simultaneously, and therefor attack without tacking losses first
ok, then it is actually a choice. but I did just realize that this would interfere with the who attacks first charge bonus. Charging would need to infer a different type of bonus because attack order becomes irrelevant.
well, if we go your way with initiative, it would add speed, since the dudes are running (i guess)
CptYellow wrote:
slaughtergames wrote:]every new turn you determine AGAIN whether or not the defenders get to attack.
this means that in that second turn the defenders can simply choose to counter-attack.
Makes sense, except you would have to track who attacked who if the combat prolongs through several rounds. but that probably wouldn't happen anyways.
yeah, combat really wouldn't take very long.
CptYellow wrote:
slaughtergames wrote:and planning your charges so that the defenders can't counter-attack would be a nice tactic assault a unit without it even hitting back in that first round of melee. it penalizes the defending player for not forseeing that his unit was going to be charged.
and, if you wait with charging your unit in for all the turn, it means your opponent get's to shoot it for all of that turn.
this is true... but I still have a bad feeling that games would often degrade into a stick waving affair of both sides refusing to shoot because they might get charged. It could also mean that players more often opt to move out of charge range rather then shoot and the game then becomes a whole lot of Cat and Mouse and a lotta no killin.
well, i don't think that either of the players would move into charge range and then sit there. if you do that, your melee unit get's shot to pieces. and eventually one of the two opposing squads would have to activate and then the other is free to do what it wants... though if it happens, it indeed is a very noob/annoying problem..
"i buy me new deffkopta!!"
"waaaagh!"
"i did research, to find out how to minimize the randomness of the shock-attack gun."
"huh?"
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slaughtergames
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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by slaughtergames » Fri Oct 07, 2011 6:34 pm

slaughtergames wrote:another little summary of the mechanic so far:

roll to hit: 2d6 + CC skill + amount of men in squad - opp. DEF - opp. CC skill.
toll to wound: opp. ARM - CC strength

rule about attacking: (initiative wise)
if a unit get's charged, ask the question: "has it already activated?"

YES: the unit does nothing: since you only activate once a turn.
NO: the unit has two choices; counter-attack, or wait for it's regular activation.

COUNTER-ATTACK: the unit activates immediately. (this is the only exception to the rule that units take turn in getting activated.)it MUST fight, it immediately gets to attack, but cannot do anything else during that activation.

WAIT FOR IT'S REGULAR ACTIVATION:the unit activates at any point during the remainder of the turn. it does now have all options available to it: leave combat, shoot, run, throw grenades, etc. it can fight back, but anyone can understand that it's smarter to counter-attack if you want to do so.


proposal: I don't want to add a separate initiative stat, so I propose we simply use the CC skill to determine who get's to attack first. most basiinitiative have the same CC skill anyway, so it gives an advantage to more elite units/solo's. also I would propose that the charging unit get's a CC bonus for the sake of determining who attacks first on the turn it charges, though that bonus would only count for initiative, and not for determining hits. I imagine it being + 1 or 2...
read the quote above through intensively. you will notice that the problem is already solved!! :x
CptYellow wrote:
Wiouds wrote:I have been saying there is no way that any squad can fight back if that squad second before fire.
And I'm saying that it can. In combat you should always be aware of your surroundings, and this is easier to do when in a squad. So yeah, I am not going to agree with you so I'm not going to argue about it anymore.
"i buy me new deffkopta!!"
"waaaagh!"
"i did research, to find out how to minimize the randomness of the shock-attack gun."
"huh?"
"waaaagh!"
"WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGH!!"

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