Close Combat mechanics

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should models attack simultaneously or only during their own activation?

simultaneously
8
53%
only during own activation
7
47%
 
Total votes: 15

Wiouds
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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by Wiouds » Sun Oct 02, 2011 12:11 pm

evilgreenthing wrote:yes, I know. I will never forget the animals.lol
But I feel like they should be a more elite faction, that or have a lot of spam
I do not think they should be a "more elite faction" Any new player should be able to pick up any faction and get a good ideal how to use them.

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slaughtergames
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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by slaughtergames » Sun Oct 02, 2011 4:09 pm

alright, back on topic guys!
i'll concede with units only hitting on their own activation. as a result of that though, melee shouldn't be very deadly at all. (i'm thinking killing 1-2 guys with a round of attacks)

that aside, i'll summarize our combat mechanic: (as i understand)
2d6 + amount of men + CC skill - opp.DEF - opp.skill = hits to a max. of men in squad

are we going to do hits x amount of attacks? (3 hits x 2 attacks = 6 hits) i don't think so... opinions?

and we'll just keep the ARM - S = needed to wound roll (but then CC strength)
"i buy me new deffkopta!!"
"waaaagh!"
"i did research, to find out how to minimize the randomness of the shock-attack gun."
"huh?"
"waaaagh!"
"WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGH!!"

Wiouds
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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by Wiouds » Sun Oct 02, 2011 5:26 pm

Remember that cover should not be a factor so that is a big different from range. combat that would change the odds of getting possible hit.

Having a CQ skill would make it easier to balance.

For the hits I say it should just be to get equal or greater than armor - might.

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slaughtergames
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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by slaughtergames » Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:48 am

Wiouds wrote:Remember that cover should not be a factor so that is a big different from range. combat that would change the odds of getting possible hit.
cover makes it harder to hit. RoF makes it easier. in CQC we have neither. yay!
Having a CQ skill would make it easier to balance.
that's why it's there.
For the hits I say it should just be to get equal or greater than armor - might.
that's exactly what i said.

i still like Dacotrilar's idea that a "killed" model still get's to attack back in it's next activation (assuming it hasn't already done so) but then with some debuffs(like -1 skill or -1 Strength)

example:
A charges B (how original lol..)
A wounds 3 guys. this is where it get's complicated.
those three "wounded" models would normally be removed immediately as casualties. but notice how i said wounded, not killed.
so when B strikes back, all their "alive" and/or "unwounded" models attack, as well as the weakened attacks of the 3 wounded models.
and then, after those "wounded" models have attacked, they are removed as casualties. they have used their last strength and fainted.

this allows for more deadly melee fighting...
"i buy me new deffkopta!!"
"waaaagh!"
"i did research, to find out how to minimize the randomness of the shock-attack gun."
"huh?"
"waaaagh!"
"WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGH!!"

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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by CptYellow » Mon Oct 03, 2011 2:15 pm

I feel that close combat should involve a full "round", during each players activation. That "round" would constitute both sides fighting. That is NOT to say that they would fight simultaneously, that's a different animal all together.

My reason for this is simple... Ease and fluidity of play. Now I know that you may think that both sides fighting in one activation isn't easy or fluid, but it is. Think about it this way, if only the player who activated fights in a close combat then the other player has to remember to fight back next round. They will forget more than one would think. The other point is that close combat is NOT shooting, as others have stated you are involved in a hand to hand fight for your life and as such the combat would be faster paced and more frenzied. Fluff wise both sides should be FORCED to fight in a close combat each activation (of units in said comat). It simply doesn't make sense that one would get attacked, and then wait for his/her commander to tell them to punch or stab or maul the fellow back. Also consider that we are not taking WHFB horde sized units here, we are talking units of 1 - 10 models tops, CC won't take long at all to resolve each activation.

Fluidity wise I simply state that Matt wants this to be a fast paced easy to play game that involves hard/soft counters. Both sides fighting on each player's activation means CC won't last very long and the victorious unit will be free from CC sooner rather than later. I highly doubt that Matt would want CC to become a tar pit style mechanic like 8th edition Fantasy, since he most certainly dislikes that about Fantasy.

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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by CptYellow » Mon Oct 03, 2011 2:26 pm

In my post above I said that order of attack was a different animal all together. Here's my thoughts.

Charging should play a strong role in who goes first. The possibilities for this are numerous and I won't start listing them.

There should be some form of stat that aids in determing order of attack.

Matt needs to decide if he wants this to be a random (rolling of dice) or static (stat/rule based) mechanic.

One thought for charging is that if models have firing arcs or overwatch arcs on their bases then have that play a role in charging. For instance if a unit charges another and they are inside that arc then that is bad for the chargers. If they are outside of it (Behind them, or flanking them) then that is good for the chargers. Just one of many possibilities.

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slaughtergames
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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by slaughtergames » Mon Oct 03, 2011 4:57 pm

i do still agree with cpt. yellow here...

really we have a choice from 2 things:
either faster and more deadly combat,
or slower combat...

@ cpt. yellow: with "simultaneously" i meant "during the same activation", i worded it poorly...


but then overall i feel we need Matt to make a video, because all of the forum is stagnating anyway...
"i buy me new deffkopta!!"
"waaaagh!"
"i did research, to find out how to minimize the randomness of the shock-attack gun."
"huh?"
"waaaagh!"
"WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGH!!"

Wiouds
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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by Wiouds » Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:27 pm

I think the only different between the range and melee attack should be what stats used.

DacoTrilar
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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by DacoTrilar » Tue Oct 04, 2011 12:11 pm

slaughtergames wrote:but then overall i feel we need Matt to make a video, because all of the forum is stagnating anyway...
I completely agree, I think there are two solid ideas here and Matt should just pick one so we can move on.

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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by CptYellow » Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:33 pm

Wiouds wrote:I think the only different between the range and melee attack should be what stats used.
I simply ask why? Why should it be the same? The type of attack and damage done are different fluff wise, so why should the mechanic be the same?

Not saying you are wrong, just asking.

Yes, Matt needs to make a video. The forum is just spinning its wheels and flogging dead horses.

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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by Wiouds » Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:48 pm

CptYellow wrote:
Wiouds wrote:I think the only different between the range and melee attack should be what stats used.
I simply ask why? Why should it be the same? The type of attack and damage done are different fluff wise, so why should the mechanic be the same?

Not saying you are wrong, just asking.

Yes, Matt needs to make a video. The forum is just spinning its wheels and flogging dead horses.
Why should it be different I mean the reason for it to be the same. "Do I remove my enemies units?" There is not real different but for the range and what they use.

Where does it say that different fluff wise mean different game play wise? If that was true so many games would be failures.

Lastly is there a need for second combat system? Two combat system could become confused a mix together.

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slaughtergames
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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by slaughtergames » Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:47 pm

have you ever played warhammer fantasy?
yes, the melee/ranged systems are the same, but think about all the little rules that WHFB has that DP doesn't even need... i don't think two mechanics would be confusing at all, unless they are TOO similar.

"...so many games would be failures" well, we're not mimicing other games here, we're creating our own! be creative! :D
"i buy me new deffkopta!!"
"waaaagh!"
"i did research, to find out how to minimize the randomness of the shock-attack gun."
"huh?"
"waaaagh!"
"WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGH!!"

Wiouds
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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by Wiouds » Tue Oct 04, 2011 7:52 pm

slaughtergames wrote:"...so many games would be failures" well, we're not mimicing other games here, we're creating our own! be creative! :D
I was talking about CptYellow's answer to my ideal. He say that range and melee are different fluff wise so they should be different game play wise.

I can not think of a strong logical reason that there should be a second combat system for melee.

Wiouds
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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by Wiouds » Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:05 pm

Sorry for the double post but how about this:

A squad (which include solos) only get one attack a turn unless otherwise told.
If a squad has already attack that turn then on their own they can not attack a melee unit.
If a squad has not attack that turn then their controlling player can choose to counter. After the attacking squad finish their attack, their phase is over and the defending squad must attack. Then the defending squad and can move. In other words a counter counts as their phase for that turn.

Attack is handle the same away for both melee and range.

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evilgreenthing
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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by evilgreenthing » Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:38 am

me gusta.
sincerely EGT

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