Close Combat mechanics

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should models attack simultaneously or only during their own activation?

simultaneously
8
53%
only during own activation
7
47%
 
Total votes: 15

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slaughtergames
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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by slaughtergames » Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:52 am

Wiouds wrote:That just one set of numbers. You need to look over a large group of stats. then WHAT other stats do i need to look at? you asked me:"where are you getting your number from?" yuou were referring to the numbers in my number-crunch. now don't tell me i have to take an ARMOR of 8 into account, because we aren't in the stage that such units exist. the unit we have now, has an ARMOR of 5.

I do not like the forcing a defending player to attack. First it does not speed up the game any way. It does not make CC more deadly. It only remove control from the squad owner.it's a benefit to BE ALLOWED to attack. after attacks are made, any one of the units can choose to leave the melee... or something. my point is that "having to" attack is a benefit. see it as "being allowed to" attack.

What if a defensive squad gets a current offensethere is no "offense" stat in this game. i assume that you meant "strength" of 5 and the attacking squad has a current defense has a current Defense of 18.how would a unit in melee get a DEF of 18?!!
Or what If a squad have a CC might again, i assume you mean "strength?". there is no "might" in this game. of 1 and get attack any a squad whose armor is 8. That mean they must roll a 7 on a d6.again, there isn't yet a squad with ARMOR 8. though if that becomes a problem in the future, i'm sure we'll address that by that time.

On both cases the defender squad has not chance of killing an enemy on the over side.that's why they get the chance to leave CC AFTER they attacked. because it's a benefit in ALL other normal situations. please don't change the mechincs to make ONE situation fair and all others badly done.

I do not see a reason for penalizes the squad that leave combat.sorry mate, but i can't even comprehend this sentence. They lost units is that a big enough penalty? Do we need to had penalty to range unit that leave combat?
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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by Wiouds » Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:58 pm

You are telling me that Close Combat (CC) is not deadly enough and to back up your clam you use only a single set of numbers to prove it. That is a poor way to back up your clam.

Sorry forgot to add this:
I use current offense for all positive modifiers to the 2d6 roll
I use current defense for all negative modifiers to the 2d6 roll
I use might as the strength of the CC weapon. Since a number of squads will have a range weapon and CC weapon, it is be better to have CC weapon strength and range weapon strength use different name for those stats.

We must keep those things that affect the combat system in mind as we make the combat system. If they can happen it is better to deal with them now else it could cause more complicated problems later. Stats affect combat so we need to keep stats in mind as we work on the combat system. We need to come up with a way to handle those times that attacks will have no affect because of the stats. There will be times when no matter what you can roll you can not get a kill. The range attacks handle this by allowing the players to choose not to attack.

This leads to the problem that we must address right now. How do we deal with CC attack if the stats do not allow any kills to happen? I like the ideal if the stats do not allow nay kills then the player can simply choose for the squad not to CC attack. This can not happen if the is force to have a squad CC attack.

I have problem is with forcing a squad to CC attack after being CC attack.

First look at the rule “A squad must attack any squad that CC attack it.”
If a squad has already range attack before it got CC attack then that squad get two attacks that turn. The problem with this is that a squad that uses CC attack get only one attack a turn, but a squad that uses range attack could get a two range attacks in one turn. A second problem is that a squad that uses a CC attack will get counter attack while a squad that uses range attack will not get counter. To put more simply it is not fair for a squad that uses CC attack when compare to a squad that uses range attacks.

The problem of a squad having more than one attack a turn get worse when they get CC attack a number of times in one turn. If in one turn a squad get CC attack three times then that squad will attack three or four times that turn.

This rule does add more attacks into a turn but the extra turns are unfairly distributed. The squad that is defending and/or use a range attack will be the one that gets more attacks. What does this mean? Well encourage both play not to attack.

Now let us look at the rule “When a squad has not attack during a turn and is CC attack, that squad will CC attack it. This attack counts as the squad’s attack for that turn.”
If a squad uses a range attack before it get attack by CC attack then there is no problem. This makes sure that squad that range attack during a turn can not attack a second time during that turn. This also stop squad from attack every squad that CC attack it.

There is a problem with this rule. The rule can reduces the overall deadliness of combat. If a Squad has higher stats in range than CC then how is forcing CC be more deadly? I did some math and I can say that reducing current office while the current defense stay the same will reduce the odd to get at least one die to roll for a kill and reduce the highest number dice you could get to roll for a kill.

Forcing the player to take action does not help make the game more fun.

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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by slaughtergames » Tue Oct 18, 2011 4:56 am

oh yeah! a thought through reply!! :D
Wiouds wrote:You are telling me that Close Combat (CC) is not deadly enough and to back up your clame you use only a single set of numbers to prove it. That is a poor way to back up your clame.

sorry wiouds, but i don't see what other stats you want me to use. we have only developed one unit so far, (w/ strength 1 and ARM 5 etc.) and that's what i used for my number crunch. unfair combats with ARM 8 and such will be more exception that rule.

Sorry forgot to add this:
I use current offense for all positive modifiers to the 2d6 roll
I use current defense for all negative modifiers to the 2d6 roll
I use might as the strength of the CC weapon. Since a number of squads will have a range weapon and CC weapon, it is be better to have CC weapon strength and range weapon strength use different name for those stats.
oh thank you. that clears up a lot.

We must keep those things that affect the combat system in mind as we make the combat system. If they can happen it is better to deal with them now else it could cause more complicated problems later.i meant that the solution would be very simple; if it is more than 6+ to wound we could just say it stays 6+. ofcourse it's easier to solve it now.. srry. Stats affect combat so we need to keep stats in mind as we work on the combat system. We need to come up with a way to handle those times that attacks will have no affect because of the stats. There will be times when no matter what you can roll you can not get a kill. The range attacks handle this by allowing the players to choose not to attack.you probably mean "attack something else" since not attacking at all is kinda boring, isn't it?

This leads to the problem that we must address right now. How do we deal with CC attack if the stats do not allow any kills to happen?max. wound roll would be a 6+? I like the ideal if the stats do not allow nay kills then the player can simply choose for the squad not to CC attack. This can not happen if the is force to have a squad CC attack.if we go cpt.yellow's way, the unit attacks, and can thereafter choose to leave the combat. in all normal situations getting to attack is a benefit, and in this rare situation it changes exactly NOTHING

I have problem is with forcing a squad to CC attack after being CC attack.

First look at the rule “A squad must attack any squad that CC attack it.”i understand your problem. we kinda fixed it with cpt.yellow last week, but i'm sure it wasn't too clear? good thing you brought it up. we can very easily just say a squad can't attack more than twice a turn. so if it has fought a round of CC against one enemy, it can only fight one more.

eventhough, it comes to mind, if we use my melee system, this is already solved.

If a squad has already range attack before it got CC attack then that squad get two attacks that turn.again, tht's a flaw in cpt.yellows mechanic that mine solves. we simply have to choose, and if we don't choose mine, we have to solve this problem. The problem with this is that a squad that uses CC attack get only one attack a turn, but a squad that uses range attack could get a two range attacks in one turn. A second problem is that a squad that uses a CC attack will get counter attack while a squad that uses range attack will not get counter. To put more simply it is not fair for a squad that uses CC attack when compare to a squad that uses range attacks.

The problem of a squad having more than one attack a turn get worse when they get CC attack a number of times in one turn. If in one turn a squad get CC attack three times then that squad will attack three or four times that turn.again, that would be VERY simple to solve.

This rule does add more attacks into a turn but the extra turns are unfairly distributed. The squad that is defending and/or use a range attack will be the one that gets more attacks. What does this mean? Well encourage both play not to attack.i don't agree. it would discourage multiple close combats.

Now let us look at the rule “When a squad has not attack during a turn and is CC attack, that squad will CC attack it. This attack counts as the squad’s attack for that turn.”
If a squad uses a range attack before it get attack by CC attack then there is no problem. This makes sure that squad that range attack during a turn can not attack a second time during that turn. This also stop squad from attack every squad that CC attack it.

There is a problem with this rule. The rule can reduces the overall deadliness of combat. If a Squad has higher stats in range than CC then how is forcing CC be more deadly?it still get's a chance to kill something. take guardsmen. they have "less good CC stats", but that soesn't mean they don't kill anything AT ALL. :) I did some math and I can say that reducing current office while the current defense stay the same will reduce the odd to get at least one die to roll for a kill and reduce the highest number dice you could get to roll for a kill.
i'll say it once more.: after attacking, the unit can just leave the combat and go shoot again.
Forcing the player to take action does not help make the game more fun.i can happily say i don't agree.
obviously, my comments are red.

i am leaning back towards my own combat system now. it solves all the problems you have brought up untill now.

@ everybody: do you like my combat system better, or cpt.yelow's? and ofcourse, which one do you think works better? b/c we really need to know WHAT CC system we are trying to work out here.
"i buy me new deffkopta!!"
"waaaagh!"
"i did research, to find out how to minimize the randomness of the shock-attack gun."
"huh?"
"waaaagh!"
"WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGH!!"

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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by Wiouds » Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:58 pm

slaughtergames wrote:oh yeah! a thought through reply!! :D
Wiouds wrote:You are telling me that Close Combat (CC) is not deadly enough and to back up your clame you use only a single set of numbers to prove it. That is a poor way to back up your clame.

sorry wiouds, but i don't see what other stats you want me to use. we have only developed one unit so far, (w/ strength 1 and ARM 5 etc.) and that's what i used for my number crunch. unfair combats with ARM 8 and such will be more exception that rule.
You need to look at a large number of sets of stats before you can make a clam about how deadly CC attack it. You must look at the exception during you test to.
slaughtergames wrote:
There is a problem with this rule. The rule can reduces the overall deadliness of combat. If a Squad has higher stats in range than CC then how is forcing CC be more deadly?it still get's a chance to kill something. take guardsmen. they have "less good CC stats", but that soesn't mean they don't kill anything AT ALL. :)
I ask if overall combat would be more deadly when you force a player to use a weaker attacks? not if they will get kills?
slaughtergames wrote: Ii'll say it once more.: after attacking, the unit can just leave the combat and go shoot again.
That can give squad two attacks while the CC attack squad get only one.

Here is my combat system and I can not find a large problem with it.
Wiouds wrote:Sorry for the double post but how about this:

A squad (which include solos) only get one attack a turn unless otherwise told.
If a squad has already attack that turn then on their own they can not attack a melee unit.
If a squad has not attack that turn then their controlling player can choose to counter. After the attacking squad finish their attack, their phase is over and the defending squad must attack. Then the defending squad and can move. In other words a counter counts as their phase for that turn.

Attack is handle the same away for both melee and range.

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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by Wiouds » Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:02 pm

slaughtergames wrote:oh yeah! a thought through reply!! :D
Wiouds wrote:You are telling me that Close Combat (CC) is not deadly enough and to back up your clame you use only a single set of numbers to prove it. That is a poor way to back up your clame.

sorry wiouds, but i don't see what other stats you want me to use. we have only developed one unit so far, (w/ strength 1 and ARM 5 etc.) and that's what i used for my number crunch. unfair combats with ARM 8 and such will be more exception that rule.
You need to look at a large number of sets of stats before you can make a statement about how deadly CC attack it. You must also look at the exception during these time.
slaughtergames wrote:
There is a problem with this rule. The rule can reduces the overall deadliness of combat. If a Squad has higher stats in range than CC then how is forcing CC be more deadly?it still get's a chance to kill something. take guardsmen. they have "less good CC stats", but that soesn't mean they don't kill anything AT ALL. :)
I ask if overall combat would be more deadly when you force a player to use a weaker attacks? not if they will get kills?
slaughtergames wrote: Ii'll say it once more.: after attacking, the unit can just leave the combat and go shoot again.
That can give squad two attacks while the CC attack squad get only one.

Here is my combat system and I can not find a large problem with it.
Wiouds wrote:Sorry for the double post but how about this:

A squad (which include solos) only get one attack a turn unless otherwise told.
If a squad has already attack that turn then on their own they can not attack a melee unit.
If a squad has not attack that turn then their controlling player can choose to counter. After the attacking squad finish their attack, their phase is over and the defending squad must attack. Then the defending squad and can move. In other words a counter counts as their phase for that turn.

Attack is handle the same away for both melee and range.

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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by evilgreenthing » Tue Oct 18, 2011 8:09 pm

Two things, are you guys having a debate, or arguing. sencond its not clame its claim
sincerely EGT

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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by slaughtergames » Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:43 am

evilgreenthing wrote:Two things, are you guys having a debate, or arguing. sencond its not clame its claim
thing one: just a discussion, since we can't seem to agree

thing two: claim! :shock: oh well, you can guess that english is not my first language,(third actually) and is doesn't seem to be wiouds's either.. :)
"i buy me new deffkopta!!"
"waaaagh!"
"i did research, to find out how to minimize the randomness of the shock-attack gun."
"huh?"
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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by slaughtergames » Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:04 am

sorry for double post
btw, wiouds, if i insulted you bt saying english might not be your first language, then sorry mate :wink:
back to the discussion! :D

so it seems we both don't like cpt.yellow's idea that a unit ALWAYS attacks back...
really, we have to choose between mine and yours (wiouds's)

quick reminder of what they are:

mine:
slaughtergames wrote: rule about attacking: (initiative wise)
if a unit get's charged, ask the question: "has it already activated?"

YES: the unit does nothing: since you only activate once a turn.
NO: the unit has two choices; counter-attack, or wait for it's regular activation.

COUNTER-ATTACK: the unit activates immediately. (this is the only exception to the rule that units take turn in getting activated.)it MUST fight, it immediately gets to attack, but cannot do anything else during that activation.

WAIT FOR IT'S REGULAR ACTIVATION:the unit activates at any point during the remainder of the turn. it does now have all options available to it: leave combat, shoot, run, throw grenades, etc. it can fight back, but anyone can understand that it's smarter to counter-attack if you want to do so.
wiouds's:
Wiouds wrote: Sorry for the double post but how about this:

A squad (which include solos) only get one attack a turn unless otherwise told.
If a squad has already attack that turn then on their own they can not attack a melee unit.
If a squad has not attack that turn then their controlling player can choose to counter. After the attacking squad finish their attack, their phase is over and the defending squad must attack. Then the defending squad and can move. In other words a counter counts as their phase for that turn.

Attack is handle the same away for both melee and range.
when looking at them, they seem very similar.. (VERY similar indeed)

but if you say: "a squad cannot attack that turn if they have already ATTACKED...." (or something like that) that would mean that a squad can move, and then attack??
that seems to be the major difference; wiouds's system only allows one attack per turn, mine only allows one activation per turn..

again, it seems to boil down to a matter of choosing.. :)
"i buy me new deffkopta!!"
"waaaagh!"
"i did research, to find out how to minimize the randomness of the shock-attack gun."
"huh?"
"waaaagh!"
"WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGH!!"

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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by CptYellow » Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:53 pm

ok, first thing, I haven't been posting in this thread anymore because I got sick and tired of the pointless back and forthness of the "argument" (because I'm sorry, but that's what it turned into). Seriously, this thread is now 7 pages of the same points being repeated by all parties.

@Wiouds - very important thing for you to understand here "stats are built to fit into a set of game mechanics, NOT the other way around". I dare you to try and build an entire table top game that starts with stats and builds mechanics to fit them... I dare you.

@Wiouds - SHOOTING and CLOSE COMBAT.... THEY ARE NOT THE SAME!!!! Last time I'm gonna say this. You can't treat them as the same, you just can't.

The problems with my system that have most recently been pointed out are for the most part irrelevant, as I have always been assuming an order of attack system and charge bonus system would accompany a simultaneous CC mechanic. Therefore they could be tailored to keep the advantage in the hands of the charging unit. Wiouds is literally obsessed with the whole "fairness" of fighting back stuff, he/she is not seeing it clearly and it seems as though an ideal mechanic for them is to have all combats (shooting, Dark Potential, Close Combat) end in a draw irregardless of the units involved, their stats, and the tactics used.

Lastly, I'm signing off from this thread, it's going nowhere, and has just been an exercise in frustration for me. I give a nod to Slaughtergames and DacoTrilar for being civil and attempting to keep the "discussion" productive.

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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by evilgreenthing » Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:37 pm

Kk, the above post is right. You guys should get an imparcial judge (ME :mrgreen: , or matt) and presnt your ideas. I agree that this needs to be handled, but you are at a stand still. we need to move on, and this is important
sincerely EGT

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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by slaughtergames » Thu Oct 20, 2011 6:51 am

you guys are right. i'll just stop posting and wait untill matt makes a video... i can understand it became kinda frustrating...
"i buy me new deffkopta!!"
"waaaagh!"
"i did research, to find out how to minimize the randomness of the shock-attack gun."
"huh?"
"waaaagh!"
"WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGH!!"

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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by evilgreenthing » Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:57 am

Its fine, its just not gonna go anywhere
sincerely EGT

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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by Wiouds » Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:09 am

@CptYellow: Combat depend on the stats too. Stats can affect how combat works. If we do not keep that in mind then there will be a set of stats out there could break the game when they come up while playing.

CptYellow: Range and CC are both squad to squad attacks, and giving superfluous reason why they are different does not change that.

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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by Phatty » Sat Oct 29, 2011 5:21 pm

seriously as soon as matt makes a video im going to say most of these ideas will go out the window and we will have to begin anew. just sayin

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