Close Combat mechanics

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should models attack simultaneously or only during their own activation?

simultaneously
8
53%
only during own activation
7
47%
 
Total votes: 15

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slaughtergames
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Close Combat mechanics

Post by slaughtergames » Sun Sep 25, 2011 4:59 pm

i had an idea:

first roll of to see who attacks first:
attacker wins: attacker goes first.
tie: in first round attacker goes first, later rounds simultaneously.
defender wins: defender goes first.

this is either on 1- or 2- d6 and maybe throw in a skill modifier? (separate CC skill)

attacks are made so, i came up with three options (I kept it similar to shooting)
please first read legenda below..
1.)M+S+2d6-D=H (gives average 4 hits)
2.)M*S+2d6-D=H (gives average 7 hits)
3.)M*S+2d6-D+opponent's S=H (gives average 5 hits)

legenda
M=amount of Men in squad
S=combat Skill (assumed 2)
D=opponent's Defence
H=amount of Hits


option one straitforward equals shooting...nothing to say about that
option two simply gives more hits, because there is no RoF to multiply with in combat..
option three does the same, but gives more skilled defenders a bonus

so go ahead and tell me what you like/suggest...
Last edited by slaughtergames on Thu Sep 29, 2011 3:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by Wiouds » Sun Sep 25, 2011 10:55 pm

I like the ideal over going with the shooting system. Also I do not like the ideal of the defenders allow to counter attack.

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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by DacoTrilar » Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:24 am

I like the idea that the equation for combat should include the number of men attacking, their skill, their opp's skill, and their opp's defense. Your equation is as good a place to start as any.

I don't think the defenders should attack in the same activation as the attacker, remember it's unit-by-unit activation not phases. So, I'd just scrap the whole roll off and just have the attacker make an attack during its activation. Some units might have a counter-attack, but it probably shouldn't be a standard part of combat.

Just as a general thought, I think that close combat should probably do about half as much damage as shooting. So, an average of 1-4 killed in a single round. That way there is a reasonable chance for the defender to fight back. Also, I propose we incorporate the same hit-wound system that shooting has, so it's easier to learn. Basically, you try to land some number of hits and then you see how many people die from those hits. It's a core system that should probably be carried through for everything.

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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by evilgreenthing » Mon Sep 26, 2011 1:01 am

I like the idea. Though I think that there should be bonuses for having multipule close combat weapons, like in 40k
sincerely EGT

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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by DacoTrilar » Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:03 pm

evilgreenthing wrote:I like the idea. Though I think that there should be bonuses for having multipule close combat weapons, like in 40k
You could simply count each model twice or add a straight two-weapon bonus (i.e. +2).

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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by slaughtergames » Mon Sep 26, 2011 1:19 pm

DacoTrilar wrote:I like the idea that the equation for combat should include the number of men attacking, their skill, their opp's skill, and their opp's defense. Your equation is as good a place to start as any.

I don't think the defenders should attack in the same activation as the attacker, remember it's unit-by-unit activation not phases. So, I'd just scrap the whole roll off and just have the attacker make an attack during its activation. Some units might have a counter-attack, but it probably shouldn't be a standard part of combat.

Just as a general thought, I think that close combat should probably do about half as much damage as shooting. So, an average of 1-4 killed in a single round. That way there is a reasonable chance for the defender to fight back. Also, I propose we incorporate the same hit-wound system that shooting has, so it's easier to learn. Basically, you try to land some number of hits and then you see how many people die from those hits. It's a core system that should probably be carried through for everything.
i agree with you that we have to keep it similar to shooting. i played around, getting our creative wheels turning..
Matt wants this game to be fast and pretty deadly too. if we make it so that models die slowly in CC, one combat could clog up some units for the rest of the game. we don't want that, now do we? that's why i thought we should have a way to get more hits in.(and thus more kills)
and i do not agree that a unit would only fight during it's own activation.(without it's enemy hitting back) it just seems weird to me. i would have them fighting either simultaneously or with something else to determine in which order attacks are made. i added the dice roll, so that we don't have to add a separate initiative stat.
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"i did research, to find out how to minimize the randomness of the shock-attack gun."
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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by Wiouds » Mon Sep 26, 2011 3:02 pm

slaughtergames wrote: and i do not agree that a unit would only fight during it's own activation.(without it's enemy hitting back) it just seems weird to me. i would have them fighting either simultaneously or with something else to determine in which order attacks are made. i added the dice roll, so that we don't have to add a separate initiative stat.
First off. I do not like the whole next melee combat phase.

If a unit is shooting at another squad they should be instantly ready to counter attack?

Another problem is that the units can can shoot would get the better end of the deal since they get two attacks in on phase while melee units only get one.

If they player does not ready themselves for CQC then the units should not get a counter. They have over watch that can stop CQC from happening.

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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by slaughtergames » Mon Sep 26, 2011 3:24 pm

sorry? i never added a CC phase... i was imagining that a model in close combat would HAVE TO fight during its regular activation.

i was picturing it like this:
A charges B. both directly attack during A's activation. then during B's activation they fight again.

it's hard to put to words, but i feel like attacking simultaneously (or at least during the same activation) is more logical, even when shooting happens in their own activation.
"i buy me new deffkopta!!"
"waaaagh!"
"i did research, to find out how to minimize the randomness of the shock-attack gun."
"huh?"
"waaaagh!"
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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by DacoTrilar » Mon Sep 26, 2011 7:14 pm

slaughtergames wrote:sorry? i never added a CC phase... i was imagining that a model in close combat would HAVE TO fight during its regular activation.

i was picturing it like this:
A charges B. both directly attack during A's activation. then during B's activation they fight again.

it's hard to put to words, but i feel like attacking simultaneously (or at least during the same activation) is more logical, even when shooting happens in their own activation.
I know what you're talking about, and it could work, however this is how I see it.

Unit A charges unit B and kills half the unit. Unit B activates and fights back at half strength. Unit A activates and finishes off unit B.

I think this system for close combat fits the system a bit better, since it's faster to resolve combats (takes no more time then shooting) and it works off the activation (you do stuff during your activation). I'm not completely against your system, but I feel it doesn't quite fit.

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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by Munchkin » Mon Sep 26, 2011 7:39 pm

If you only allow hits on activation you could get this problem:

At the end of the turn Unit A charges Unit B and attacks. Unit B can't go as it has already activated. The next turn unit A gets to activate first - does so and finishes off B without B ever having a chance to hit back.

To my mind, CC should be deadly. Your targets aren't just standing around waiting for you to hit them. They are fighting back, defending themselves.

Another thing is the Animal Faction - if you have a mechanic where by you can by pass their strength (that is using timing so that they can not fight back in CC) you are weakening that faction. Charging the CC faction, regardless of when you do it in the round, should be a hair-raising and bloody experience.

My preference would be for simultaneous attacks - defender rolls and attacker rolls (with attacker getting some charge bonus or other), and each side loses casualties during the same activation. This makes CC deadly and quick... and gives the Animal Faction something to work with, that can't be easily bypassed.

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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by Wiouds » Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:15 pm

The problem I have with the defender can counter the attack is that it would make those that shoot better since they can shoot and still fight melee. Just think of the sniper critical hit on an enemy just in his weapon range and while stabbing another enemies.

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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by Munchkin » Tue Sep 27, 2011 5:12 pm

I think maybe we are getting our wire crossed here?

I am not saying that if you are in close combat and it is your activation you can shoot, and then fight.

Nope - there is no way that any game should allow someone who is in close combat to fire weapons. But a simple rule stating that, fixes that problem.

I am saying, that regardless of what else you are doing, if someone charges you with a sharp pointy thing, trying to insert it in various parts of your body, you are not going to just stand there. You'll fight back.

I have no problem with a sniper (not in CC) activating and taking a shot, then getting charged by a rabid rabbit, and then getting a roll in CC as he fights for his life.

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slaughtergames
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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by slaughtergames » Tue Sep 27, 2011 5:13 pm

If you only allow hits on activation you could get this problem:

At the end of the turn Unit A charges Unit B and attacks. Unit B can't go as it has already activated. The next turn unit A gets to activate first - does so and finishes off B without B ever having a chance to hit back.

To my mind, CC should be deadly. Your targets aren't just standing around waiting for you to hit them. They are fighting back, defending themselves.
exactly
Another thing is the Animal Faction - if you have a mechanic where by you can by pass their strength (that is using timing so that they can not fight back in CC) you are weakening that faction. Charging the CC faction, regardless of when you do it in the round, should be a hair-raising and bloody experience.

My preference would be for simultaneous attacks - defender rolls and attacker rolls (with attacker getting some charge bonus or other), and each side loses casualties during the same activation. This makes CC deadly and quick... and gives the Animal Faction something to work with, that can't be easily bypassed.
YES! you worded it perfectly!


so in the end we are talking about what "feels" right.. (I noticed we both used that word) so we might need some direction from matt..
Last edited by slaughtergames on Tue Sep 27, 2011 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"i buy me new deffkopta!!"
"waaaagh!"
"i did research, to find out how to minimize the randomness of the shock-attack gun."
"huh?"
"waaaagh!"
"WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGH!!"

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slaughtergames
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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by slaughtergames » Tue Sep 27, 2011 5:17 pm

yeah, I mean, no matter how concentratedly you are trying to snipe somebody, your are going to react to someone trying to kill you... you haven't come all that way to get killed because you were distracted...
"i buy me new deffkopta!!"
"waaaagh!"
"i did research, to find out how to minimize the randomness of the shock-attack gun."
"huh?"
"waaaagh!"
"WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGH!!"

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Re: Close Combat mechanics

Post by Wiouds » Wed Sep 28, 2011 12:03 am

slaughtergames wrote:yeah, I mean, no matter how concentratedly you are trying to snipe somebody, your are going to react to someone trying to kill you... you haven't come all that way to get killed because you were distracted...
So you are saying that a person that just fire a second before will be able to counter an attack. That is what they call being blind sided.

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