Stealth

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griffinthemad
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Re: Stealth

Post by griffinthemad » Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:01 am

Also coherency is a no go for those reasons listed. Unless the coherency is something like 6 inches or more.

Also...not sure if it was brought up but, if you are required to have the mini on the side...what is stopping your opponent from looking at the unit beforehand? They will know what the unit is...or is this not important, just the fact that you don't know what base he is is enough confusion.

Everyone seems to be against an empty base.

Why not have a clear figure on the base, generic, without a hint to what it really is, just a clear humanoid shape, the logo for the game, or just a shape that represents cloaking.
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Re: Stealth

Post by spehktre » Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:38 am

miniwargaming wrote:In the last DPDD I briefly talked about the idea for stealth as a mechanic.

I don't want it to play a huge roll, but it would be fun if there were certain solos in each army that could do it to some degree.

Here is how I see it working:

1. There are different levels of stealth.

Low level: basic camouflage (e.g. a sniper's really good camo gear)
Mid level: high tech camouflage (e.g. a suit that changes colours according to what's behind it)
High level: invisibility

2. Each level would have a Stealth stat

Low level: 4
Mid level: 6
High level: 8

3. Each stealthed solo has 3-5 numbered markers that represent where they might be.

The controlling player notes which one is the real person.

4. If an enemy can draw Line of Sight (LOS) to a marker then a Stealth roll has to be made.

Roll 2d6. Must roll equal to or lower than the Stealth stat.

Modifiers:

Short range (0-10"): -4 to Stealth
Medium range (10-20"): -2 to Stealth
Long range (20+"): no modifier

If failed, then must reveal if it was a decoy or not. If decoy, remove from board, otherwise leave marker (don't need to place miniature).

5. Automatically revealed if takes any action other than moving (e.g. firing, entering overwatch).

Remove all decoys.

6. Only have to replace with miniature in certain situations.

For example, high level cloaking might only last the first 2-3 rounds. Low level cloaking only works until first detected.

Each type of cloak would have a special "place miniature when _____" rule.

Thoughts?
1) Stealth levels a good idea. Saltinerunner mentioned a nice simple idea for difference between the stealth levels, the rating being the number of extra bases or tokens they get.

I have another alternative, which applies different conditions on the "revealing" of stealth units:

Level 1 (Camo/Basic Steath): Unit is hidden so long as it remains in cover (hiding in bushes, behind rocks etc). This will mean that any unobstructed line of sight will reveal the unit.
Level 2 (Adv Camo): Hidden so long in cover or has solid terrain <1" behind it. Broken if unobstructed line of sight can be drawn *and* there is not terrain <1" behind unit.
Level 3 (Invis): Unit is hidden until revealed. Line of sight is irrelevant.

If you wanted to simplify further, it wouldn't be a big deal to get rid of level 1 or 2 stealth entirely.

Include a "super sensor" or "scanner" ability that auto detects all stealth within a radius. Invisibility may also be immune to this (as Potential Energy could make the soldier invisible to *everything*).

Attacking an enemy unit automatically breaks stealth (unless otherwise stated).

2) Adding an additional numerical variable stat (stealth rating) to have to reference during a game is best avoided if possible. The less numbers and charts to keep referring to, the better.

3) Thumbs up on numbered markers for stealth units. I like it.

4) I think the requirement for a test to constantly reveal hidden units seem rather cumbersome. I understand that stealth will be uncommon on units, but just one stealth unit can prompt many tests every single round. Better to simplify IMO.

5) I think only attacking an enemy unit should break stealth. Overwatch should be fine so long as your mechanics support it. Each stealth marker can easily have a 90 degree "vision" mark. Putting the fake units on stealth overwatch will make for some awesome fake-out moves in game and *really* keep your opponent guessing.

6) I talk about reveal mechanics in point 1. Keep it simple I reckon.

I'd further like to consider a "restealth" mechanic. A revealed unit can enter stealth again as an action. The unit must be completely concealed from the enemy to do so. You then replace the model with all of it's stealth tokens next to/on top of each other. Next turn you can move the stealth markers as normal.
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miniwargaming
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Re: Stealth

Post by miniwargaming » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:54 am

To clarify a few points:

1. Your opponent knows which unit you're bringing. This has to be done to make sure that you aren't cheating.

2. The "coherency" would be huge, probably something like 5-20" depending on the stealth level. I think it's important to have this as it represents how easy (or hard) it is to find you.

And remember, if you have 4 markers that have to be within 10" coherency, they could be stretched out over 30".

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Re: Stealth

Post by saltinerunner45 » Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:56 am

griffinthemad wrote: Why not have a clear figure on the base, generic, without a hint to what it really is, just a clear humanoid shape, the logo for the game, or just a shape that represents cloaking.
i agree, i was totally serious when i said i would model cardboard boxes. i could just have, say 10 or so, and put numbers on either the boxes or even on the bottom. have a little side note on a folded piece of paper saying my 'sneaky-sneak' is under box #2. only problem i see is if you play the same guy every weekend, he is bound to figure out the little differences between every base after so long.

also, you could always paint a line on on the bases of stealthed models (or all models for that matter) and measure overwatch from there... unless i wasnt understanding the problem with overwatch on stealthed units.
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Re: Stealth

Post by Wiouds » Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:38 pm

I like the ideal for stealth unit is to have an ambush which is overwatch with out the template and some other bonus. Have a sniper get a +2 or something with their roll or a wolf like squad get a increase their max hit when they charge.

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Re: Stealth

Post by Cow » Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:27 pm

Saltinerunner has the idea! Take the bottom of any base (probably a round one) Then just find the exact centre and paint two lines interecting at that centre. Then just continue to extend those lines up the side of the base. Now, assuming its clear which quadrant is the "front arc" (like have the model facing that direction for example) then you have no need for templates.

Another way can be to actually model (or engrave) those lines on the bottom, so mass produce bases come like that standard.

Now whenever that one model needs to use Overwatch, you just say so (your opoenents still have to know what action you are doing.) When you call upon Overwatch's mighty abilities then you can check sight by drawing lines from those lines on the base straight out. Easy!

For stealthed ones, you can say multiple invisi-bases will go on Overwatch, and "forget" to call upon it when an opertunity arrives.
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Re: Stealth

Post by saltinerunner45 » Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:42 pm

maybe they could do bases in a similar manner to warmachine/horde? i wonder how much more that would cost than a 40k base.....
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Re: Stealth

Post by DacoTrilar » Wed Aug 31, 2011 9:59 am

I think just using square bases like in fantasy solves this problem very nicely.

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novakidx
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Re: Stealth

Post by novakidx » Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:51 pm

Matt could probably make some cool looking "stealth bases" where one is marked with a small symbol on the side [ie something that only someone looking over at it could see,or is very hard to notice]

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Re: Stealth

Post by Font » Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:06 am

novakidx wrote:Matt could probably make some cool looking "stealth bases" where one is marked with a small symbol on the side [ie something that only someone looking over at it could see,or is very hard to notice]

Idk about you, But me and my friends play in my basement, cramped and we have to switch sides of the bed to move our guys =P

It'd be easier marking clear bases, or just have multiple clear bases, until you decide where you want it, Like deep strike. except you have to take an action for it, persay.

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Re: Stealth

Post by slaughtergames » Sun Sep 04, 2011 7:36 am

i don't think most of you are getting this correctly: nobody is sharing movement or doing exactly the same thing, etc. etc.. you simply have five empty bases that all act as a solo, but those "decoys" can't actually do any damage. they keep your opponent guessing where your actual solo/independent REALLY is...
(correct me if i'm wrong here matt)

as for overwatch, i would say they all could act differently, like say, one goes into overwatch, a couple of them run and your actual solo also goes in overwatch or runs. (or SOMETHING that doesn't reveal him.)

end can any overwatching unit actually choose not to shoot when something acts within their AoS? because then you could have a decoy on overwatch, and that stops a player from moving his troops, but if he does, you could go like:"haha i'm not gonna shoot i'm gonna keep stealthing" but actually you don't shoot because that would reveal that it's a decoy.

and i would suggest that camo (the low level stealth) would be even easier to detect, but that you can still gain cover (or some kind of DEF benefit) on any turn your "camo guy" sits still...(hides)
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Re: Stealth

Post by slaughtergames » Sun Sep 04, 2011 7:42 am

oh, and i had a little idea, but let's see wether you guys like it..

like a camo guy(adv./level 2 camo) could also mix in with other troops instead of terrain. like he is revealed unless he is behind terrain, or there is terrain OR FRIENDLY MODELS <1" behind it. (and maybe make that <2"?)
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Re: Stealth

Post by Cow » Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:04 pm

slaughtergames wrote: and* can any overwatching unit actually choose not to shoot when something acts within their AoS? because then you could have a decoy on overwatch, and that stops a player from moving his troops, but if he does, you could go like:"haha i'm not gonna shoot i'm gonna keep stealthing" but actually you don't shoot because that would reveal that it's a decoy.
I already said that earlier:
Cow wrote:For stealthed ones, you can say multiple invisi-bases will go on Overwatch, and "forget" to call upon it when an opertunity arrives.
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Re: Stealth

Post by slaughtergames » Sun Sep 11, 2011 12:45 pm

well then "great minds think alike"
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Re: Stealth

Post by Phatty » Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:11 pm

could a stealthed unit shoot at a target and remained stealthed as long as ALL of the decoy bases are within range of the target?

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