Supressive Fire

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CptYellow
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Re: Supressive Fire

Post by CptYellow » Thu Aug 25, 2011 2:06 am

I think saltinerunner45 was better able to word my argument there. Why would you intentionally miss? especially when you may/probably have limited resources. Plus Munchkin's math is undeniable, the leadership stat would have to be crazy high to make double RoF work, and that would break most other aspects that use leadership. (although it would only be 15 wounds due to the limited hit rule, but still, way too many wounds to use as a modifier)

Fluff wise, my thoughts on the leadership test is that it is not to determine whether or not suppression occurs, but to determine the reaction to suppression of the squad. The idea being that any smart soldier is going to duck for cover when being shot at like crazy. A green soldier may lose his cool and do something stupid. A good leader should help to prevent that from happening.

i.e. - a squad suppresses another squad with 3 wounds, the wounds determine the extent of suppression (can't move, can't shoot, #of turns it lasts, etc.) ON TOP of that the suppressed squad must make a leadership test, the leadership stat is modified by say the #of squads firing at them (e.g. crossfire bonus) so in this case -1ld. Say they are base ld6. So 6 - 1 = 5 avg 2d6 roll = 7 - 5 = 2. They fail by 2, the attacking squad landed 3 wounds, so 2 troops die.

this signifies the unit panicking from all the fire coming their way, two guys couldn't handle it and tried to run home for mommy, they got shot.

Also, in most of my examples I have tossed out the fact that suppression ignores cover. Mainly because you hit too hard that way... there could be other ways around that if necessary though.

Jebus86
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Re: Supressive Fire

Post by Jebus86 » Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:35 pm

Yeah the double rate of fire wouldn't work if you were using the normal firing mechanic. It was just in my alternative way of working it out. Plus I would say if you had a 10 man squad of light assault rifles their suppressive fire should be effective.
CptYellow wrote:Why would you intentionally miss?
You are not shooting to miss. Normally you shoot at a target (a person) - effective use of ammo etc.

If your target is in cover you have two main options:

1) Wait for them to pop their heads up and take aimed shots (leaves you sitting out in the open in their 'kill zone' <- usually not good.) This rarely works as they are normally dug in - so you need to back off.

2) Get as much fire on the enemy position as fast as you can to keep their heads down or at least reduce the effectivness of their fire - usually to allow another squad to flank. The double fire idea was to simulate the fact you are not waiting to aim at a person but simply firing at a static position. In my experience I very rarely saw the enemy in these situations and relied on the accuracy of whoever spotted the muzzle flash to accurately identify their position. The 'waste' of ammo is balanced against the tactical advantage gained in being able to execute the flanking maneuver.

How you might want to turn this into a game mechanic is another question.
Last edited by Jebus86 on Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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saltinerunner45
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Re: Supressive Fire

Post by saltinerunner45 » Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:37 pm

CptYellow wrote: Fluff wise, my thoughts on the leadership test is that it is not to determine whether or not suppression occurs, but to determine the reaction to suppression of the squad. The idea being that any smart soldier is going to duck for cover when being shot at like crazy. A green soldier may lose his cool and do something stupid. A good leader should help to prevent that from happening.
i agree, but couldnt this just be fixed by using the leaders leadership? or is that just what you intended?
CptYellow wrote: i.e. - a squad suppresses another squad with 3 wounds, the wounds determine the extent of suppression (can't move, can't shoot, #of turns it lasts, etc.) ON TOP of that the suppressed squad must make a leadership test, the leadership stat is modified by say the #of squads firing at them (e.g. crossfire bonus) so in this case -1ld. Say they are base ld6. So 6 - 1 = 5 avg 2d6 roll = 7 - 5 = 2. They fail by 2, the attacking squad landed 3 wounds, so 2 troops die.
i like the cant move/shoot thing, but not the soliders dying from supressive fire.
maybe if they roll less than 1/2 their leadership they could not move/shoot until your unit activates again?
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CptYellow
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Re: Supressive Fire

Post by CptYellow » Thu Aug 25, 2011 5:03 pm

well saltine, Matt nixed crossfire in the live feed just now, so yeah...

for the first part though, that is what I was getting at about the leader.

the second part was open to interpretation, I just wanted to indicate that if the leader wasn't any good, the squad suffered more.

PS - I'm upset at the removal of crossfire, it had such potential

Munchkin
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Re: Supressive Fire

Post by Munchkin » Thu Aug 25, 2011 6:19 pm

I see the leadership roll as encouraging your troops to act normally under a hail of fire.

Regardless, I think you need to keep wounds out of suppression fire. It should be a tactical choice: do I cause wounds or do I try and freeze that unit for an activation.

To my mind, if you are going to cause wounds in suppression fire you might as well tie the whole thing up in the one mechanic.

For eg: 'If a squad in cover receives 33*% casualties in one firing phase they must pass a leadership test or are suppressed for their next activation and may not move or fire. Squads in the open receiving 33*% casualties in one firing phase must make a leadership test or withdraw directly away from the enemy during their next activation.'

(*this is number pulled out of the air just to give you an idea)

My personal preference though is to have tactical fire (to cause wounds) and suppression fire as two separate choices.

CptYellow
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Re: Supressive Fire

Post by CptYellow » Thu Aug 25, 2011 7:15 pm

Jebus86 wrote:You are not shooting to miss. Normally you shoot at a target (a person) - effective use of ammo etc.

If your target is in cover you have two main options:

1) Wait for them to pop their heads up and take aimed shots (leaves you sitting out in the open in their 'kill zone' <- usually not good.) This rarely works as they are normally dug in - so you need to back off.

2) Get as much fire on the enemy position as fast as you can to keep their heads down or at least reduce the effectivness of their fire - usually to allow another squad to flank. The double fire idea was to simulate the fact you are not waiting to aim at a person but simply firing at a static position. In my experience I very rarely saw the enemy in these situations and relied on the accuracy of whoever spotted the muzzle flash to accurately identify their position. The 'waste' of ammo is balanced against the tactical advantage gained in being able to execute the flanking maneuver.

This is true, and makes sense.
Jebus86 wrote:How you might want to turn this into a game mechanic is another question.
And that my friend is the million dollar question, looks like Matt has decided on the simplest form.
Munchkin wrote:I see the leadership roll as encouraging your troops to act normally under a hail of fire.
I was viewing it as, the leader says "Go to ground" or "Hit the dirt" or "Take cover" and the test checks to see who obeyed. Two sides to the same coin with different results I guess.
Munckin wrote:Regardless, I think you need to keep wounds out of suppression fire. It should be a tactical choice: do I cause wounds or do I try and freeze that unit for an activation.
I'm alone on the wounds thing, so I'll let it die. Just to be clear I initially only intended the wounds to be for crossfiring squads, but I ended up putting in normal suppression somehow.

CptYellow
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Re: Supressive Fire

Post by CptYellow » Thu Aug 25, 2011 7:21 pm

Jebus86 wrote:2) Get as much fire on the enemy position as fast as you can to keep their heads down or at least reduce the effectivness of their fire - usually to allow another squad to flank.
Just thought I should mention that when Matt playtested this on the live stream I noticed and pointed an obvious flaw. And that was that (with the way the mechanic was working at the time) the flanking squad was in a worse position after the suppression and move than before it. This was because the suppressed squad would potentially get to go first next turn and wake up and kill the flanking squad, where as if they just stayed where they were they wouldn't have died.

Matt acknowledged that and a discussion on how to fix the mechanic started, it ended up being that the unit can't un-suppress until AFTER it's NEXT activation.

vanishing
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Re: Supressive Fire

Post by vanishing » Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:08 am

Rather than extending the suppression time to 2 actions, couldn't suppression work by limiting the unit's next action (they need to take an "unsuppress" move or something) and give the suppressing squad an automatic overwatch against just their target squad in the next round? They could then interrupt anything the possibly unsuppressed target does, probably by trying to suppress them again.

This seems logical. When you're suppressing an enemy position you don't stop just because it's a new round. Although, it could be a little over powered since small units could tie up bigger units for a long time, unless they fail their suppression rolls. Balancing suppression probability might fix that.

Hayes300
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Re: Supressive Fire

Post by Hayes300 » Sat Oct 08, 2011 5:05 pm

i think that units supressed can blind fire with a severe shooting penalty

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