Extreme range shooting

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Masked Tyranid
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Extreme range shooting

Post by Masked Tyranid » Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:02 pm

Hello, everyone. Been lurking for a while, and the chance to influence the creation of a new wargame lured me out into the open. So anyway...

By the title of this article, I don't mean doing a triple ollie on your skateboard while firing your submachine gun at the enemy (though maybe we could do that in an expansion :wink: ). I mean firing at distances your weapon was not meant for. See, one of the things that annoys me about WH40k is that, when you think about it, the ranges for all the weapons are ridiculous. Some of them can barely shoot farther than a man can throw a rock. I get why they do this--they want to encourage close-in, brutal fighting. However, it makes little sense and can really screw over a shooty unit that's not very good in melee.

To help counteract that, I'd like to propose a rule that says that, unless otherwise mentioned in the rules for a particular weapon, you may fire any ranged weapon at any target on the board you have a line of sight to, regardless of distance. The catch is that once you've exceeded your weapon's listed range value, it becomes very difficult to score a hit on your target. Like, for instance, Matt mentioned in his video that you might need to roll a 2d6 to hit the enemy, adding your attack value to try and beat your target's defense value. If we used a system like that, then at extreme range, you'd need to roll a 12 (or maybe an 11, too) to hit, and the number of wounds you inflict will be halved, rounding up. Simple, easy, and doesn't require a bunch of modifiers. Not likely to happen, but it's something for a player to think about if he's feeling lucky.

That's just an example, though. The point, however, is that since this is a futuristic wargame I don't want modern-day assault rifles being outranged by spitwads. Providing special rules for firing at extreme range, just like in some RPG's I've played, would prevent this dilemma while also preserving the importance of having long-range weapons.

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miniwargaming
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Re: Extreme range shooting

Post by miniwargaming » Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:22 pm

I was thinking of using the idea of there being no maximum range, but range bands instead.

So a weapon with a range band of 10" would not have any modifiers at 10", but then for every extra 10" it would get negative modifiers to its shooting.

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novakidx
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Re: Extreme range shooting

Post by novakidx » Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:34 pm

so just to keep track:
we have suppressing fire at half wounds and now ranged firing at half wounds
cloaking,leaders,and over watch
I think some notes need to be formed on some of the rules already

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Re: Extreme range shooting

Post by joeman45 » Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:40 pm

Maybe this could be done the opposite way too, like if you're shooting at something that's half your range, you get positive modifiers.

So if you had a weapon with like a 10" range, and you were shooting at something 5" away, you would get bonuses when rolling to hit or something.
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Re: Extreme range shooting

Post by IPlayThisGame » Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:49 pm

I'm with Matt on this one. Have it like the Dungeons and Dragons system for ranged combat. Each weapon has a Range Increment. Attacks up to this increment strike normally. For each increment further out, the greater the penalty to hit becomes.

For example:
A pistol has a range incrmeent of 12". Attacks made at enemies 12" away or closer roll normally. Attacks up to 24" away take a-1 penaly. Attacks up to 36" away take a -2 penalty, and so on.

This way weapons can have an essentially unlimited range, but it gets harder and harder to hit things the further away they are.

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Maboc
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Re: Extreme range shooting

Post by Maboc » Wed Aug 10, 2011 2:02 am

I had this also in one of my posts.

Proximity roll: to see if the bullets are even flying close to the target.
we take the Optimum range of for example a Guass rifle
<10 inches: 2+ to pass
each additional 2 inches(could be more) adds 1+
10-12 3+
12-14 4+
14- 16 5+ Here the weapon strength goes down.
16- 18 6+ Armor piercing ability lost + weapon stength goes down

john doe is targeting a figure 11 inches away, so he needs a 3+ and makes it.

of course the inches etc can be modified to specific "Range Bands"

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spehktre
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Re: Extreme range shooting

Post by spehktre » Wed Aug 10, 2011 2:30 am

Maboc wrote:I had this also in one of my posts.

Proximity roll: to see if the bullets are even flying close to the target.
we take the Optimum range of for example a Guass rifle
<10 inches: 2+ to pass
each additional 2 inches(could be more) adds 1+
10-12 3+
12-14 4+
14- 16 5+ Here the weapon strength goes down.
16- 18 6+ Armor piercing ability lost + weapon stength goes down

john doe is targeting a figure 11 inches away, so he needs a 3+ and makes it.

of course the inches etc can be modified to specific "Range Bands"
I think we're getting into the "too complex" and the "need tables" categories here. Perhaps just:
Gauss Rifle:
<10 inch range, 2+ to pass.
10-20", 3+.
20-30", 4+. etc.
Until the 60-70", 7+ bracket, where it becomes impossible to hit without bonuses. There's nothing wrong with "impossible to hit".
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CoalitionOfMyths
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Re: Extreme range shooting

Post by CoalitionOfMyths » Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:41 am

I think sniper rifles should get the inverse of the range thing. like xtra dmg/ap at super range and more dmg at long. default and norm and negatives any closer
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spehktre
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Re: Extreme range shooting

Post by spehktre » Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:58 am

CoalitionOfMyths wrote:I think sniper rifles should get the inverse of the range thing. like xtra dmg/ap at super range and more dmg at long. default and norm and negatives any closer
I am on Earth. I use my sniper-rifle to shoot a guy on the moon. Auto hit. Instant death. love it ;)
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CoalitionOfMyths
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Re: Extreme range shooting

Post by CoalitionOfMyths » Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:43 am

spehktre wrote:
CoalitionOfMyths wrote:I think sniper rifles should get the inverse of the range thing. like xtra dmg/ap at super range and more dmg at long. default and norm and negatives any closer
I am on Earth. I use my sniper-rifle to shoot a guy on the moon. Auto hit. Instant death. love it ;)
lol beleive it
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Re: Extreme range shooting

Post by IPlayThisGame » Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:16 am

spehktre wrote:
CoalitionOfMyths wrote:I think sniper rifles should get the inverse of the range thing. like xtra dmg/ap at super range and more dmg at long. default and norm and negatives any closer
I am on Earth. I use my sniper-rifle to shoot a guy on the moon. Auto hit. Instant death. love it ;)
I laughed quite hard at this :P

I see where you're coming from with this CoalitionOfMyths, but being in the military (and knowing the basics of physics at that), it doesn't make sense for a sniper rifle to do MORE damage at long range. The bullet is still slowing down every fraction of a second it's out of the barrell, and less velocity means less kinetic energy and therefor less energy transfered to the target, which ultimately manifests as a smaller hole in your body.

However, sniper rifles could just have an extremely long Range Band, and maybe even a special rule that causes them to suffer no penalty for the first couple of range bands

Although after I got off last night, I was thinking of ideas for Potential Energy weapons. Using dark matter manipulation, you could store electric potential energy from a battery in a standard round, and have it so the extra energy is slowly burned off in flight, allowing the bullet to maintain a constant speed (by converting the excess potential energy into kinetic energy rather then solely relying on the energy from the explosion and expanding gases of gunpowder or it's futuristic equivalent) so the bullet functions more like a rocket then a kinetic projectile. But I think that's going too far ahead right now.

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novakidx
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Re: Extreme range shooting

Post by novakidx » Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:27 am

IPlayThisGame wrote:
However, sniper rifles could just have an extremely long Range Band, and maybe even a special rule that causes them to suffer no penalty for the first couple of range bands
I'll agree with this

talking about a DP sniper rifle is kinda complex,but for basic mechanics I agree with the above

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spehktre
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Re: Extreme range shooting

Post by spehktre » Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:41 am

I think a neat mechanic for "sniper" units, would be to be able to choose which model in a unit gets taken out. So you could target the commander, or the comms guy, or the heavy weapons guy.
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novakidx
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Re: Extreme range shooting

Post by novakidx » Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:47 am

well the way I want the game to work,even when they are in a unit the soldiers are able to act separably [not meaning they will..60% of the time they probably all act as one squad]

so you wouldn't have a problem targeting 1 person in a squad

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CoalitionOfMyths
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Re: Extreme range shooting

Post by CoalitionOfMyths » Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:07 pm

spehktre wrote:I think a neat mechanic for "sniper" units, would be to be able to choose which model in a unit gets taken out. So you could target the commander, or the comms guy, or the heavy weapons guy.
Then on a lucky (if that) couple shots you can take out the main commander O.O

I slightly disagree for the main reason of taking out the main warboss. but other than that I do like.

How about guys w/o helmets or something like that can get picked from the herd.
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