A suggestion for the salvagers faction

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Bart
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A suggestion for the salvagers faction

Post by Bart » Sat Sep 15, 2012 7:28 am

Hello,

I'm new here and if these ideas have alread been posted or if I'm too late and the rules and mini's for this faction are already done I'd like to appologise. I've watched a number of Dark Potential video's and I really like the feel and setting of the game. For the Salvagers faction, which i completely mechanical in nature, I think it would be nice to have a different playstyle than the human or alien factions.

Salvagers in my understanding of the fluff and background just "salvage" equipment and technology to keep the main computer "alive" so he can permanently repair itself. Furthermore has it a strange feel that computers can use command points as the other races can. However command points are a very big deal in Dark Potential so they need something equal but completly different. A possible suggestion is AI points (Artificial Intelligence).

A main difference between AI points and command points can be the combat nature and the goal of these machines. A scrapling's job is to salvage bits and parts to use so the main computer can restore itself so to use it in the game as a mere close combat unit seems a bit like a waste. Maybe they can have the (or a kind of) "salvage" special rule (like the specific scenario were units can salvage from terain). The bits they have salvaged can be brought to the Central Salvaging Unit, which acts as the commander, who can have the abilities of a small factory. He would be able to turn harvested resources in to new units like Escort units.

The fluff could be that the artificial intelligence programming of the CSU has detected elements (the models of the other player) who could interfere with the salvaging duty so he can sacrifice some salvaged resources to create more defensive robots which will result in a higher chance of succes at holding possible threats at bay so the robots can do what they are programmed to do: "salvage as many parts in peace and quiet (AKA when the potential threat is "neutralised"). Fluffwise this can be related at military artificial "wargames and battle doctrines" and the concept of preemptive warfare although on a smaller scale.

This is only a basic idea and it probably needs a lot of finetuning to make it ballanced with the other factions but I believe that this can give a unique twist to a unique army.

Furtermore I would like to say that Mathew has done an incedible job and I hope the game will break through and really become very popular. It has a kind of commando/killteam feeling to it which I really like.

Regards.

Bart

PS: English is not my native language so I'd like to appologise for possible mistakes I made :mrgreen: .

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slaughtergames
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Re: A suggestion for the salvagers faction

Post by slaughtergames » Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:25 pm

Welcome to the forums!

So basically, you're saying that Salvagers shouldn't have commandpoints, but rather be able to spawn more models? I wouldn't agree.

IMO spawning models is cool. But I don't see why computers wouldn't issue commands to each other (or rather, the most sophisticated one controlling the others). How different is "recruits, take cover!" from "CY 074-078, obscure from threat"?

moreover, I don't think that spawning additional models can really compensate for the lack of CP.

wait, here's an idea of my own:

OVERRIDE (model special rule)
a model with this rule has the commander special rule, but it cannot spend CP to modify rolls. instead, a model with this rule can let a unit, that could have received a CP from it, substitute a stat from the model with this rule as its own.
[i/] example : the CSU could have given the escort scrapling unit a CP, so it lets them substitute its RA (which I assume is higher), to give them a better chance at hitting.
"i buy me new deffkopta!!"
"waaaagh!"
"i did research, to find out how to minimize the randomness of the shock-attack gun."
"huh?"
"waaaagh!"
"WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGH!!"

Bart
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Re: A suggestion for the salvagers faction

Post by Bart » Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:57 am

Thanks for the reply.

You are right. The total removal of the system of commandpoints is indeed not neccesary. I wanted to create a unique feel and style to this faction. Your suggestion of the OVERRIDE-rule is very creative.

Furthermore have I thought a little longer about the possibilities of a whole robotic faction and I have developed a few core ideas to make the faction look and feel unique.

I’ve tried to be more to the point with this contribution and I hope there is some (maybe dark) potential in what I’ve written.

My main suggestions are :

1. A modified use of commandpoints (cfr. Slaughtergames idea of OVERRIDE)
2. Morale is not (so much) of an issue for robots
3. Produce or repair ?
4. A key role for the Scraplings

1. A modified use of commandpoints (cfr. Slaughtergames idea of OVERRIDE)

I think the suggestion of an OVERRIDE rule is a great and creative way to make the salvagers a unique faction. I’ve elaborated on this concept. Instead of using command points like the human and xenos factions the commander units of the salvagers can give bonusses to other units.

To use OVERRIDE the unit has to be within a certain range of the commander. The action costs one command point and the effects have a duration of 1 turn.

The Central Salvaging Unit (CSU) can choose to give another unit one of following (non-stackable) bonusses :

- The unit can use the CSU statts for Ranged attack and Perception.
- The unit gets one of following rules : Overwatch, Tactical manœuvre, Infrared vision or
Short shot.
- A scrapling can reroll or add +2 to its roll when repairing or scavenging.

The Targetter can give the unit the possibility to use its statts for Ranged attack and Perception.

2. Morale is not (so much of) an issue for robots

Matt has anounced when he introduced us to the Salvagers faction that he didn’t intend to make a fearless robotic army and that they will tacticly retreat when the odds are overwhealming.
However the morale rules now include the broken morale rule with modifiers. I think the morale of a robotic soldier can’t be broken in that way. This means that no morale test is taken when a unit is hit or when a friendly unit within 6’’ is whiped out.

Sidenote : I think Matt intended that the Salvagers are programed to make a Cost-Benefit Analysis of the current state of the battle. To represent this the Salvagers need to make a kind of leadership test when they are losing badly. If they fail they should retreat (albeit in an orderly way and still be able to fight), which can be done by a compulsory move to the deploymentzone of the player controling the Salvager Faction. A possible measurement for the total army strenght is the total number of wounds of all the salvager units on the table compared to the woundtotal at the start of the game.

A robot can be damaged when he’s hit, so instead of the morale test the Salvager unit can be literaly broken or malfunctioning. In game terms a Salvager unit which is hit has to roll a D6 and on a 5+ some vital part is hit but the model is not destroyed. A second hit can make the situation worse so this opens the possibility of a counter system. Each time the unit is damaged by a hit it receives a counter that permanently reduces it’s effectivity further.

1 damage counter : -1 movement and -1 defense

2 damage counters : additional effects : -1 ranged attack, -1 perception and OVERRIDE is not applicable

3 damage counters : additional effect : Immobilised

A scrapling in base contact with that model can attempt to repair (=unit specific action) the damaged unit. On a D6 roll of 4+ one damage counter is removed.

3. Repair units or produce new ones?

I’m in a dilemma here. I do not know which option is most fitting so I’ll explain them both. A combination of both probably is overpowered.

a. Repair

When a Salvager unit has wounded, a scrapling can try to repair the wound at a D6 roll of 6. Perhaps this healing rule can be expanded to ‘dead’ robots. Instead of removing the casualties the model is put on his side and a scrapling in base to base contact can try to repair it at a D6 roll of 6. When succesfull the ‘fallen’ unit stands back up with 1 wound.

However this would make the division of squads very difficult since there could be ‘fallen robots’ all over the battlefield. A possible solution is to work with lots of pure solo models or lesser multiwound solo models. This gives them a tactical advantage but they are a bit nerfed in their possibility to use commandpoints.

b. Produce new units

‘Dark Potential Playtest Session 7 : the foraging scenario’ gave me the idea that scraplings can salvage bits and bring it to the CSU so he can produce more units by sacrifice foraging tokens and/or command points.

This would move the primary function of the scraplings from repearing/healing to scavenging and would incourage your opponent to be agressive.

However this would be cool to do, it’s fluffwise not very compatible since the foraged stuff should be taken back to the main computer and it would make no sense for the Salvager faction to bring a mobile weaponsfactory.

4. A key role for the scraplings

In each case, as scavengers or mobile repair drones, the scraplings can (and IMHO should) have a crucial function in the Salvagers faction.

Furthermore I wish to congratulate Matt and the team at Miniwargaming with their Dark Potential website. It truly looks awesome and it makes the game attractive to play.

I hope I’ve given a few things to contemplate :) .

Regards.

Bart

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slaughtergames
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Re: A suggestion for the salvagers faction

Post by slaughtergames » Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:34 am

1.) great stuff. just one thing: overwatch and tactical maneuver aren't special rules. they're special actions, so they can't 'be given' by another model. they cost a command point.

also, for override, I think that the 'lesser computers' should not be able to override the CSU. think of the corp. as robots; the recruiter wouldn't override the director, would he?

2.) I agree that it's silly that a robot would panic. BUT the damage mechanic is not the way to solve the problem IMO. it adds A LOT of stuff to track, which, if you've followed the discussion about exoskeletons, is something we definitely don't want.
robots probably shouldn't suffer the stat penalty for being broken in my opinion. they don't panic. And, they probably shouldn't be able to be overridden while broken.

3.)I think that the scraplings should be able to repair, while somekind of big bot produces new scraplings. Eventhough one unit should not have both abilities, the army could. and I could definitely write up some fluff for the fact that they would produce new units on the field.

4.)I agree. first of all, it could be repairing. probably just like healing, but if we get as far as to include the rule, we'd probably have to get into the nitty-gritty of mechanics, especially because the scraplings would typically be a squad.

otherwise, their 'key role' could be to scavenge stuff, but we have to make it so, that the player would actually want to take them. so it shouldn't be like 5th ed Rage in 40K, where it was compulsory. It should have somekind of benefit.
"i buy me new deffkopta!!"
"waaaagh!"
"i did research, to find out how to minimize the randomness of the shock-attack gun."
"huh?"
"waaaagh!"
"WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGH!!"

roirhin
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Re: A suggestion for the salvagers faction

Post by roirhin » Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:58 pm

So you are saying that the Salvagers should kind of be like the Tyranids were the Tervigon spawns the Termagants.
Thats a good idea in my opinion. Instead of bringing a full army to the field they would bring less units that spawn another ones. That will give the Salvager player a tactical opurtunity since they can spawn squads at the middle of the game to engage from diferent sides. You cannot be prepared for ramdom bots spawning out of nowere and swarming towards you!

BarnyOC
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Re: A suggestion for the salvagers faction

Post by BarnyOC » Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:32 am

Continuing with the Override idea you could implement Salvager solos that would act as "wifi" hubs which expand the command range of a commanding salvager unit. Think arc nodes from warmachine but for command points and more specifically the Override function.

It could encourage an interesting playstyle where Salvager players are having to carefully manage a network of "wifi solos" to keep their army working at peak efficiency.

You could also lower the overall aiming and perceptive stats of base salvager units and give salvager commanders a large amount of command points to encourage this level of synergy.

gcdrummer02
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Re: A suggestion for the salvagers faction

Post by gcdrummer02 » Thu Mar 14, 2013 11:22 pm

Maybe something that could be worked with would be something like Cloud Processing. Salvagers get more command points, the more units they have alive "in their network".

gcdrummer02
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Re: A suggestion for the salvagers faction

Post by gcdrummer02 » Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:33 pm

Or maybe they can network out their command range.

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Re: A suggestion for the salvagers faction

Post by silverflame1382 » Sat May 04, 2013 8:43 am

I love this discussion I making the salvagers have a distinctly different play style from other factions, because in addition to different mechanics, I've aleayse cosmetically envisioned them as not even bein humanoid at all, or if humanoid, then very ratty an composite from different pieces of scrap. The "hub" unit to extend command influence is a spectacular idea IMO and is just the kind of unique opportunity that a completely robotic army represents.

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