Mixed stats within the unit. (platforms)

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slaughtergames
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Mixed stats within the unit. (platforms)

Post by slaughtergames » Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:13 pm

hey guys,

I was commenting on the new rules release, as a problem with the platforms (reclaimer) struck me: these platforms are part of the 'team', but have different stats. you can probably imagine the problem. I have two possible solutions (not saying they are perfect yet):

1: use the Team's DEF stat, but resolve wound rolls one by one on the nearest model. (like WH40K)

2: change the platform into a piece of wargear that has it's own model to measure distances from, but otherwise make it indestructible; simply remove it when the last member of the Team is killed.

now criticize!
"i buy me new deffkopta!!"
"waaaagh!"
"i did research, to find out how to minimize the randomness of the shock-attack gun."
"huh?"
"waaaagh!"
"WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGH!!"

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Re: Mixed stats within the unit. (platforms)

Post by cymruvoodoo » Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:13 pm

I think your second suggestion is the better of the two. There is no real reason for the gun system to have stats except in that the team firing the gun needs to be limited by the presence of the gun, and in case the gun can be sabotaged by other units. Right now we haven't got a way to do the latter, so that's not really a concern. I think that we can build the stats for the gun into the stats of the unit, which really just need a speed drop and the weapon defined as one of their pieces of equipment. Everything else can be handled by the weapon itself and qualities we attach to it.

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Re: Mixed stats within the unit. (platforms)

Post by miniwargaming » Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:57 pm

Good points. I hadn't thought about the mixed stats thing.

It would be easy enough to do #2, with the gun still represented as a model. We could even add in a random chance that the gun is hit instead of the squad.

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Re: Mixed stats within the unit. (platforms)

Post by cymruvoodoo » Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:11 pm

So, for example, then:

Field Artillery Team

Stats as Given (speed drop to 4)

Equipment: Combat Knife, Laser Pistol, Lancer Platform OR Harasser Artillery Platform

Lancer Platform: Range 10, St 9, RoF 1, Energy, Multiple Wounds (d3), Beam (3), Weapon Platform

Harasser Artillery Platform: Range 10, St 8/6 AOE, Ballistic, Move or Shoot, Guided, Demoralizing, Minimum Range, Weapon Platform


Weapon Platform: as listed, maybe drop the rule about going on Overwatch?, add a rule that this piece of equipment has a model which is placed on the tabletop in base contact with any model from the unit and from which Line of Fire and range are measured. Other than moving with the unit, this model does not count as a model for the purposes of being targeted, determining whether the unit is in cover, and may not be attacked or assigned attacks. However, the model for this equipment does count as a model for blocking line of sight.

Then if there ever is something intended to damage or short out a weapon platform, that rule may specifically override Weapon Platform.

End result, the unit has only one profile, the gun system is handled as equipment, and it still exists on the tabletop for really cinematic gaming.

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Re: Mixed stats within the unit. (platforms)

Post by Sabet » Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:21 pm

Would it not be simpler just to give the platform a second stat line, but only with Mv, Def and Arm? That way, its still ignored for all purposes, but if and when it gets targeted (later on with other rules) it has its own line to work with.

For example, with its Mv, the squad is limited to the move of the platform, but if the platform gets destroyed by some odd chance, they have their own normal Mv rate.
Again: Def and Arm, if its hit by something, it has its defences, seeing as it is built, and less likely to die from a single bullet. Give it some sort of damage table for when it does get hit (with later special rules)

Solves the problem of special rules being implemented later and still makes it simple. It's basically ignored for all intents and purposes until these special rules come into play.
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Re: Mixed stats within the unit. (platforms)

Post by cymruvoodoo » Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:32 pm

The problem with that is that it would take us right back to having multiple stat lines per unit.

Honestly, I keep leaving the question open of whether things will be able to knock out, sabotage, or what have you, the gun, but I would rather we didn't do that. The reason being, at this scale, nothing should really be capable of knocking out the gun mechanism before the crew are killed.

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Re: Mixed stats within the unit. (platforms)

Post by dragon1010 » Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:37 pm

yeah i think that we should keep it without a stat line for now. but we could add in something like if a high enough strength weapon hits the unit it has a chance of damaging or destroying the gun (like if a platform shoots at another platform or something like that) maybe a st9 hit or higher kind of thing.
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Re: Mixed stats within the unit. (platforms)

Post by IPlayThisGame » Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:54 pm

I second the vote for no stat line. Instead, have the Gun model come with the rule Restricted Movement (#) which forces the unit with it (and the gun itself) to move at a maximum speed of (#) or something like that to represent the massive weapon slowing the team down.

Also, a possible extrapolation for the Manual Fire rule:

This model may not perform an Action during its Activation (and therefore may not perform a manoeuvre which requires it to forfeit its Action), but may Move normally. A friendly model with the Gun Crew special rule which is in this models unit and in base contact with it may forfeit its Action to fire using this model's weapon profile. The firing model (rather than this model) is used for determining Range and LoS to the target.

Alsoalso, an "errata" to the Weapon Platform rule since the Gun wont have its own stat line:

A model with this special rule cannot run, climb, jump, or go on Overwatch or Combat Ready. A model with this special rule cannot be targeted by any kind of attack, does not receive damage from attacks, does not trigger abilities which result in an attack or damaging effect, and cannot be charged. This model is ignored when measuring distances to and from its unit, when determining LoS to and from its unit, and when counting the number of models in its unit. When a unit which contained a Weapon Platform is reduced to no other models, the Weapon Platform is removed as well.

I think it would be just as well to combine the Manual Fire into the Weapon Platform special rules to streamline things, especially since its highly unlikely anything other than a Weapon Platform would have the Manual Fire special rule.

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Re: Mixed stats within the unit. (platforms)

Post by slaughtergames » Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:36 am

great! I myself preferred the second option. but IPlayThisGame, I think your 'errata' could be much simpler. you could say:
WEAPON PLATFORM (number)
a model with this rule is only there to represent a large piece of wargear, and, being wargear, can not take damage. when this weapon is used though, distances are measured form it, rather than from the model using it. eventhough it only represents wargear, it is still a model for all purpose (Models In The Way, for example). it and it's unit can never move further than the number in brackets.


I think that pretty much covers it right?
"i buy me new deffkopta!!"
"waaaagh!"
"i did research, to find out how to minimize the randomness of the shock-attack gun."
"huh?"
"waaaagh!"
"WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGH!!"

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Re: Mixed stats within the unit. (platforms)

Post by cymruvoodoo » Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:43 am

Actually, I don't think that simplification helps. It's a touch unsound in the grammar department and not as clear as it should be. IPTG's version was at least quite structured. If there were to be changes, I might suggest:

A unit with equipment with this special rule deploys a model to represent that equipment in addition to the models of the unit. This model cannot be targeted by any kind of attack, does not receive damage from attacks, does not trigger abilities which result in an attack or damaging effect, and cannot be charged. This model is ignored when measuring distances to and from its unit and when counting the number of models in its unit. When using the piece of equipment with this rule, line of sight and range must be measured from the model which represents it. A unit with equipment with this special rule cannot run, climb, or jump. When a unit which contained a Weapon Platform is reduced to no other models, the Weapon Platform is removed as well.

The changes clean up the order of ideas and keep everything defined as cleanly as possible. I did remove the restrictions against going on overwatch and combat ready since I do not know whether one or both of those should be possible for such a unit. I also made a change to the effect that the gun model does count for blocking line of sight, which I think is important.

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Re: Mixed stats within the unit. (platforms)

Post by IPlayThisGame » Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:32 pm

The reason I purposely included the part about it not blocking LoS and firing be measured from the firing model instead of the Weapon Platform itself, is because if the Weapon Platform cannot take any damage or be targeted by attacks, than you can have the firing unit hide completely out of LoS and only have the Weapon Platform exposed, making it impossible to harm the firing unit.

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Re: Mixed stats within the unit. (platforms)

Post by slaughtergames » Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:53 pm

@cymruvoodoo: yes, that's definitely better. And I'm sorry for my grammar. This was like the one occasion that I was in a hurry to finish my post. (if you think Imake mistakes regularly though, feel free to correct me, english is not my first language, so it doesn't harm to learn more. :) )

@IPTG: ouch! I hadn't thought of that one yet!
but I only half agree: I think that using the line of sight from the firing model it is good (though there's a prob I'll get to in a moment), but I feel that distances should really be measured from the Weapon Platform itself. It just feels better, more cinematic.

now for that other problem: the firing model does not exist. It's the entire unit firing the platform right? So 'the firing model' should be specified in the manual fire rule. Maybe something along the lines of 'to use a piece of equipment with the Manual Fire rule, one model (and no more!) from its unit must be in base contact with it'.
I think no more than one model should be in base-to-base with the platform in this case, because otherwise it can become unclear which one actually is 'the firing model'.
"i buy me new deffkopta!!"
"waaaagh!"
"i did research, to find out how to minimize the randomness of the shock-attack gun."
"huh?"
"waaaagh!"
"WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGH!!"

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Re: Mixed stats within the unit. (platforms)

Post by IPlayThisGame » Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:01 pm

@slaughtergames
I very specifically described what the firing model is in my description of the Manual Fire rule:

Manual Fire
"This model may not perform an Action during its Activation (and therefore may not perform a manoeuvre which requires it to forfeit its Action), but may Move normally. A friendly model with the Gun Crew special rule which is in this models unit and in base contact with it may forfeit its Action to fire using this model's weapon profile. The firing model (rather than this model) is used for determining Range and LoS to the target."

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Re: Mixed stats within the unit. (platforms)

Post by cymruvoodoo » Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:41 pm

That's a fair point. However, I think that in such circumstances it would behoove the person under fire to try and flank the guns? I think that if the gun exists on the tabletop, which I'd like it to, then it should be used as the reference point for aiming. What if you said that the gun model was where LoS and range were measured for attack purposes and that it counted as a targetable model from the unit for attacks, but would always be the last model removed?

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Re: Mixed stats within the unit. (platforms)

Post by IPlayThisGame » Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:02 pm

Hmm, I think that idea could work very nicely, although I still think that the firing model should at least require LoS to the target (but range and LoF could be determined from the gun itself). But if the gun is targetable (and uses the same stat line as its unit for the purpose of taking hits), should it be limited to only being hit a certain number of times so that you cant just shoot the Weapon Platform a bunch and take out the entire squad, some of which might not even be valid targets (sort of the opposite problem of having the gun untargetable and the unit hiding behind LoS blocking terrain)?

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