0.3.4 Stat Line Feedback

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0.3.4 Stat Line Feedback

Post by cymruvoodoo » Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:06 am

This is mostly in response to the update thread but as Matt has requested that opinions and suggestions be posted here, I'm starting a thread to do just that.

As to the question of CCWs, depending on how willing most Reclaimer troops are to be in melee (at the moment I suspect they might not be willing at all) the correct answer could be a basic punch melee attack and then some equipment to tug engaging models out of melee with a quick gravity manipulation. You know, the ol' 1-inch shift, nothing strong, but enough to say they can disengage from melee in their own turn if they wish without having to flee the combat. This does, of course, depend on their fluff tech level and their uses of technology but at the moment I think it could be a very thematic sort of thing.

I think AkimboJones was quite right to say "bland" - the names hint at interesting stat lines to come but there isn't really much in what we see already to suggest a unique flavor to the Reclaimers except for the Stalker Missile Launcher. Now, laser rifle basic troops are going to be nasty but it is fair to say that they feel like an elite version of the PMC.

Here are a few suggestions for the reclaimers:

Strafing Run/Air Support - Given that the Reclaimers must have sufficient vehicles capable of entering and exiting a gravity well at will (in order to make scavenging Earth's supply of Dark Matter tech economically viable) and that they bore the brunt of the X'lanthos war but managed to actually do better at the end than everyone else, I think it is entirely reasonable that they would have support from gunboats, ground-attack fighters, or what have you. I think the way to have it work in a unique and tactically interesting way is to say that a model which calls in air support nominates two points on the tabletop it can see (possibly with a limit on the distance they can be apart) and then spend a CP - every model touched by a line between those two points takes a strafing hit. Then for a points cost, you can upgrade that to say any model within x inches of the line (rather than been touched by the line) is hit.

Grenades - I think smoke grenades are not the answer here. Not only is it a terrible plan to use smoke grenades in a recycled atmosphere (imagine trying to take a ship in boarding action only to suffocate everyone on both sides by using smoke grenades which overwhelm the atmosphere scrubbers.) but it doesn't feel quite high-tech enough. Why not go for a flashbang instead? What about a grenade which actually does damage?

Micro-Artillery - One thing we haven't seen for any faction yet is a weapon system larger than a light machine gun or shoulder-fired recoilless gun. I think there is room for, for example, a light mortar or small caliber howitzer. The Reclaimers are a natural fit there since they have the most military background and the most intact tech base. They have the airmobile capacity to make deploying such weapons in small engagements not a problem. I think that it would help accentuate the difference between the PMC, the X'Lanthos, and the Reclaimers. The PMC, with machine guns, flame launchers, and large quantities of troops will have a very volume concept. The X'lanthos have their elite troops and trickeration (poison, wall-ignoring troops and bullets, gravity-yanks). The Reclaimers, then, would have elite troops and a few stationary gun emplacements which drop templates rather than putting out a hail of rounds.

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Re: 0.3.4 Stat Line Feedback

Post by AkimboJonesx21 » Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:47 am

I have addressed most issues and given some ideas on the stat post if you don't mind checking them out Voodoo to see if they might work.

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Re: 0.3.4 Stat Line Feedback

Post by ashan46 » Sat Sep 01, 2012 11:05 am

This makes an excellent point. With the slightly unstable atmosphere and all who knows what certain weapons could do to either vehicles in the air or even regular soldiers. Also, the need for small indirect artillery support is there. However, the reclaimers seem to be mainly a hit and run operative type of army, so having a howitzer or mortar may slow them down.
Also, I have been working on my own ideas for dark potential to show the developers. It is for a new faction called the Highlanders(symbolic name), a faction of survivalists who have developed a society beneath earth's surface. I believe this faction does allow for some interesting feedback on the story of dark potential. I have also worked on their playing style to counter what you said about the playstyles of the other factions:
"The PMC, with machine guns, flame launchers, and large quantities of troops will have a very volume concept. The X'lanthos have their elite troops and trickeration (poison, wall-ignoring troops and bullets, gravity-yanks). The Reclaimers, then, would have elite troops and a few stationary gun emplacements which drop templates rather than putting out a hail of rounds."
The Highlanders have old technological weapons as well as having stealth tactics, knowledge of the area, strong physicality, and a variety of adaptable solos to support their forces.

Check out the forum i created about them http://www.miniwargaming.com/forum/view ... 16&t=79335

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Re: 0.3.4 Stat Line Feedback

Post by cymruvoodoo » Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:36 pm

A lot of what I had to say was in response to what you said, AkimboJones, and I think your suggestions are also some good ideas to think about. I had not considered the idea of a "feedback" grenade as with your Disruptor Grenade. I think that it's a very interesting idea, the mechanics could be pretty easy to get working, if slightly troublesome in that it does give you one more thing to keep track of or mark on the tabletop. I think my problem with it is that it would be one more counter-X'Lanthos piece of equipment - I know it would work against more than just the X'Lanthos but I think that stylistically the Reclaimers don't need anti-high-tech equipment so much as they need tools to ensure that their lack of numbers does not prove a fatal flaw when confronted with a howling horde.

I understand that conceptually the idea of artillery is a little odd for a faction with a hit and run/commando raid style but hear me out here. Over the past two centuries the most effective mobile raiding forces have almost always been the ones which were able to bring one or more light artillery pieces along with mounted troops. Napoleonic light field artillery, ACW western front cavalry raiders, Crimean war, Spanish Civil War, World War Two, all the way to modern mechanized cavalry, the ability to bring along a few light, easily deployed artillery pieces, be they mortars or cannon makes all the difference.

Now, given what is possible in terms of reducing the impact of gravity on high-mass equipment and the engineering advances we have already achieved in lightweight alloys and so on, I think it entirely reasonable for the Reclaimers to have mortars available on a 0-2 level and perhaps a single howitzer of some type. We're not talking anything huge, a 60 mm shell at most and probably more like a 40-50 mm. This is different from a rocket in that you can pack more payload into an artillery shell since it doesn't have to haul propellant along. Also, a shoulder-fired rocket launcher is never going to be putting as large a round downrange as a howitzer or cannon simply by virtue of how the weapon system works.

As for the weight, the idea of immobility, picture instead a squadron of dropships hovering over a clearing, perhaps a hillside, and commando teams of Reclaimers deploying by grav pack, and right there with them, dropping from the ships, are two small cannons. The Reclaimers simply do not have to try and shove guns along through difficult terrain since the majority of the time they can deploy right where they want to be. Unless there's something I don't know about, the Reclaimers control the airspace almost exclusively. Let's exploit that advantage.

I have not previously commented on the Highlander concept for several reasons. First off, it's not my place. I did not come up with this setting, I cannot authoritatively say what does and does not fit. Second up, I don't think I should go around stepping on people's ideas - you never know from where inspiration will spring and I'd like for Dark Potential to be as good as it can be right from the word "go." Finally, third, I think your idea isn't very good.

In short, the two primary problems I see are that there's too much potential overlap with the bandits and the idea doesn't work as a faction identity. We know so little about both the bandits and the animals and until those two are fleshed out this playstyle you've suggested runs the risk of being too like either one. The factions in Dark Potential are structured around functional societies on post-apocalyptic Earth and the idea of an entirely subterranean society doesn't seem like it would fit given what already exists. The PMC already do the underground vault thing, everybody left on Earth is intimately concerned with the idea of survivalism, and I half suspect the bandits are going to be the old-tech faction of choice.

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Re: 0.3.4 Stat Line Feedback

Post by miniwargaming » Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:42 pm

Absolutely awesome ideas. These are giving me some great inspiration for the feel for the Reclaimers.

I'll admit that I've been struggling to find their niche in the game. They have been feeling like a cross between the PMC and the X'Lanthos to me, but perhaps with a few of the ideas given here they can do more.
ashan46 wrote:The Highlanders have old technological weapons as well as having stealth tactics, knowledge of the area, strong physicality, and a variety of adaptable solos to support their forces.

Check out the forum i created about them http://www.miniwargaming.com/forum/view ... 16&t=79335
Hey Ashan46, I've noticed you have been linking to your ideas in almost every thread you post to.

Please only post your thread, and don't continue mentioning it elsewhere.

As for the faction, I'm really not interested in ideas for new factions at this point. We've got six to build, and I'm still working on the first three.

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Re: 0.3.4 Stat Line Feedback

Post by cymruvoodoo » Sat Sep 01, 2012 4:20 pm

This is just me, but based on what I've seen so far I think the Reclaimers are going to be a very mission-oriented faction. That might even be a faction special rule for them, something like "On Time, On Target" or whatever other name sounds good, which specifies that they always have one additional scenario point or victory point available if they do Objective X, which is rolled from a table at the start of the game? The idea in any case is that as an elite force, as a force whose home (in space, on the moon, wherever) is not directly threatened at the moment, Reclaimer forces on Earth are operating as aggressors, in pursuit of whatever objectives they have.

Given what advantages they do have, I see them operating as a raiding force, wanting to go into a place, hold it long enough to do what they need to do there, and then leave. This works whether they need to collect supplies, destroy equipment, kill or kidnap key personnel, or just extract data.

The other major thing to consider is the limitations the Reclaimers have - if they need food, they either have to drop it in from their own sources or very, very carefully sanitize what they take. They have to be very careful about pressure-suit breaches. If they have anything longer than a single combat to stay on planet for, they need to make choices between erecting sealed and sanitized habitats or staying in their suits the entire time. This means, to me, that they're going to be a sledgehammer force when they do strike. They don't really have the option of siege or getting stuck in a prolonged engagement.

To pull that all together into a style, then, that says good intel and good support to me. Ergo, strafing runs, gravity-lightened small field pieces for high explosive crowd control, and a concentration of force at the critical point.

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Re: 0.3.4 Stat Line Feedback

Post by AkimboJonesx21 » Sat Sep 01, 2012 7:56 pm

You have the right idea Voodoo. The Reclaimers would be would be very mission oriented, but I don't see giving them an extra objective or extra points for an objective as a good way to flesh out their beliefs as a faction.

Their "ways" should be fleshed out like every other faction; In combat. The combat should revolve around movement and placement of troops. The best way of winning a battle for them is to use "Shock & Awe" in every involvement. This would be, as I stated before, by grenade usage and grav packs. They would be the true Close Quarters faction, and high energy involvement. Movements Galore!

To use your idea of AIRSTRIKES(!), there should be a dedicated model for such an attack. A Com. Officer if you will. I can see Satellite Strikes to be fun, and an easy way to soften up armies for Close Quarters Combat.

I would like to see Portable Electron Shield Generators. Just sayin'.

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Re: 0.3.4 Stat Line Feedback

Post by miniwargaming » Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:00 pm

The trick here is that they aren't physically strong, so close combat can't be their strength. I realize what you are saying is close quarter combat, which doesn't mean close combat.

I think the ideas I like the most are them playing like a Hit and Run type of force, with things like extra movements and ways to leave close combat there.

I'm probably going to work a major weakness into them as well, whereas every time they are hit there is a chance of their suit malfunctioning. It won't be anything to crazy strong, but will help balance them back a little bit.

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Re: 0.3.4 Stat Line Feedback

Post by sonofkitrinos » Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:08 pm

Recliners as the CC themed faction is terrible. They need to wear suits to even be on the planet. They don't live and breathe earths air as the others. They would not risk Damaging the pressure in their suits in CC. Think of quarians from mass effect. Getting up lose runs almost certain risk of damaging their suits and the man inside.

I think reclaimed as fast with short mid range fire support I see them as putting heavy fire pressure on their foe as they dart around. But I think they also need to function awesome as a cohesive force and operate poorly if you don't run them insyncronization. Think wood elves. Guerilla warfare with a punch!
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Re: 0.3.4 Stat Line Feedback

Post by cymruvoodoo » Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:43 pm

I quite agree that the Reclaimers should not be melee monsters and even technology won't make up for that - they don't want to be there at all as far as I can tell. That was why I suggested some sort of "escape button" they would have to get themselves out of sticky situations. The idea of them being at risk from even minor injuries is a good one, something to help adjust the flavor of the faction as a whole.

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Re: 0.3.4 Stat Line Feedback

Post by ashan46 » Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:08 pm

Firstly, miniwargaming, I apologize for the excessive mentions of my Highlander idea. I mainly became slightly over enthusiastic with the concept. I thought the Highlanders could find some sort of niche that maybe their concept could have been used. I posted a number of times because I was attempting to get some opinions on my idea, so sorry if it was an annoyance.
:cry: :(

Also, if you are looking for a weapon designer, don't be afraid to check out some of my designs when I post them. :) (or if my Highlander idea can still redeem itself)

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Re: 0.3.4 Stat Line Feedback

Post by slaughtergames » Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:57 pm

AkimboJonesx21 wrote: To use your idea of AIRSTRIKES(!), there should be a dedicated model for such an attack. A Com. Officer if you will. I can see Satellite Strikes to be fun, and an easy way to soften up armies for Close Quarters Combat.
that's a pretty cool idea. please let me expand here:

Com. officer team
*statline*
rules:
-strafing run
*strafing explanation in other post*

-Command relays: if one memeber of the Com. team is in range of the/a commander model, any friendly model within 6" of either of these Com. officers counts as being within command range of the firstmentioned commander model.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

so that just popped into my head. thoughts?

and Voodoo, how had you imagined the mortars/light arty? let's take the mortars; a team of dudes, one carrying the ammo, another covering, and a last one bringing the actual mortar along? it seems the only way to me that it will be very mobile at all.. but does that work for other artillery (it's an open question, I have absolutely no idea)?
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Re: 0.3.4 Stat Line Feedback

Post by cymruvoodoo » Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:29 am

Well, now that's a good question. Here's what I was thinking:

Step 1 - Define "Crew Served Weapon" as a generic rule which applies to units in the core rules. A unit with Crew Served Weapon carries or mans some larger-than-normal weapon, a mortar, a cannon, a rocket battery, a catapult, what have you. The unit might or might not be able to move and fire, that will depend on the weapon system. Regardless, the unit may shoot the weapon just like units normally fire except that it takes the entire unit to fire a Crew Served Weapon, so you can't have some models firing the mortar or cannon and other models plinking away with rifles. One or the other. Now, this is an approximation, some of the models in the unit will almost certainly be keeping watch, firing at targets of opportunity, or whatever else they may desire to do, but for the purposes of gameplay, a unit with Crew Served Weapon may choose to fire that weapon or perform other actions, not a mixture of both.

Units with Crew Served Weapon do not gain additional RA for any members of the unit beyond the minimum and suffer a -1 to RA for every model they are beneath minimum listed unit strength. When you've trained to operate a gun with three, or five, or seven crew, loosing one or more of them throws off the rhythm. This does mean that there's a double penalty in that you loose the native RA buff from the model, plus take a further penalty, but them's the breaks. It does leave room open for the option to add more crew which will pad out the unit to withstand losses if you have the points to spare.

Step 2 - Design mortar team. It's a 3 man unit, we'll specify for Reclaimers since that's what we're talking about at the moment, and so they have a basic Reclaimer profile, carry trenching tools (CCW), the mortar, and laser rifles. They have the Dug In, and Crew Served Weapon unit special rules. Do they need anything else? Not really.

Step 3 - Design mortar equipment. 10" range bands, cannot fire in the first range band, and yes that means mortars are always at -1 to hit. They're not exactly precision weapons even when handled by Imperial Stormtroopers. AoE 4, St 6 Ballistic weapon, not DM powered, RoF 2 (so, try to hit on two templates, scatter independently, as normal?). There's no need to specify any kind of "bombardment" rule since cover will be checked from the center of the AoE anyway and we don't need to clutter the gameplay up with trying to calculate ballistic shadows. Might give it Demoralizing, no reason not to do so unless points or faction balance would dictate otherwise. Specify that it cannot move and fire.

So, what do we have? 3 man unit, can shoot to defend itself, can do a mixture of shooting and spotting if they don't fire the mortar, or can hold still and fire the mortar. It's not extremely scary, but those two templates are going to be good at shredding lightly armoured swarms and the 10" range bands means it can reach out pretty well. Everything runs just like normal shooting so there's nothing to relearn or adjust to aside from that penalty for going below minimum unit size.

Step 4 - Points. I would suggest somewhere between 65 and 75 points for this three man unit for the time being.

Step 5 - Possible Unit Upgrades/Variations. Here is where the flavor comes in. More crew is an obvious one. Historically, artillery crews tended to be overstrength if at all possible because there are never too many hands when it comes to making the big guns go. A blind-fire/map reference/grid targeting option would be fun for flavor and tactical flexibility. Ammunition upgrades are always popular in other games, especially when they change the utility of the piece. So, here's some quick options.

Additional Crew - 15 points a model - Every additional crewman on a mortar is an ablative wound to keep the RA at normal and to help see off attackers if anybody gets inside minimum range.

Map-Grid Targeting - 30 points - The Mortar unit may fire at targets to which they cannot draw line of fire and do so at a -3 RA penalty. In game, this represents them having a large enough store of ammunition to fire more speculative shots on the basis of information from other units in the area.

Phosphorous Rounds - 20 points - The Mortar unit may opt to fire Phosphorous Rounds with the following profile: 10" range bands, cannot fire in the first range band, St7/5 5" AoE, not DM, Remains In Play (St 5 AoE5) RoF 1, Flame. Demoralizing.

Smoke Rounds - 30 points - The Mortar unit may opt to fire Smoke Rounds with the following profile: 10" range bands, cannot fire in the first range band, St - 4" AoE, not DM, Remains In Play (St -, AoE4) Ballistic, RoF 1, Smoke.

Gravy Rounds - 35-40 points - The Mortar unit may opt to fire Gravy Rounds with the following profile: 10" range bands, cannot fire in the first range band, St 6/4 AoE 5, DM, Remains in Play (St 4, AoE 4, Gravity) Energy, RoF 1.


Now, for contrast, a quick and dirty version of a light cannon.

Reclaimer Field Artillery Piece

3 crew + Emplacement - 85 points

Standard Reclaimer stats and equipment plus the cannon and the Crew Served Weapon rule.

Field Artillery Piece - 10" range bands, St 8/5, AoE 3, RoF 2, DM powered, Ballistic, Demoralizing

Upgrades:

Extra Crew: 15 points per model.

Gyroscope Mountings: 25 points - Field Artillery Piece gains 12" range bands.

Gravitic Plates: Field Artillery Piece looses Immobile and gains Move or Fire

Sabot Rounds: 14" range bands, St 8, RoF 2, DM Powered, Ballistic, Demoralizing, Multiple Wounds (d6)

Grapeshot: Spray, St 6, RoF 1, DM Powered, Ballistic, Demoralizing, Multiple Wounds (d3)

No idea on points for those last three

There is also room for easy variations, such as a laser cannon, where "ballistic" is replaced with "energy" in the appropriate spots, tweak the ranges, and substitute in Swept Beam for Multiple Wounds or what have you.

One thing I might suggest, depending on how much we want to simulate and how much should be left on the tabletop, would be to look at some sort of "placement" rule for all units with Crew Served Weapons such that if they can move with the weapon, simply don't place the model for it unless they don't move, and then the presence or absence of the model lets you know if they can or cannot fire.

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Re: 0.3.4 Stat Line Feedback

Post by IPlayThisGame » Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:56 am

Instead of a mortar, why not a grenade launcher? There are already grenade "machine guns" which can be carried by a small team of people (Mk 19 Grenade Launcher). It should be possible, with the futuristic technology the Reclaimers posses, to create a miniaturized version which can be carried by a single person (I'm picturing something along the lines of the Halo 2 Brute Shot). Sure, 40mm grenades don't pack the same stopping power as a mortar or howitzer would, but I think conceptually, as a highly mobile faction, it makes more sense than dropping in static artillery platforms.

The other option is, of course, to have autonomous light aircraft or vehicles which act as mobile weapon platforms, or even super-heavy reclaimer suits which are designed to absorbed the massive recoil of heavy weapons while still staying (relatively) mobile.

Gorgon Heavy Weapon Combat Suit (I actually posted this as an idea for the Corporation but I think its more fitting of Reclaimers).

Mv...Df...Ar...St...At...RA...CC...Pr...Mr...Wo...CP
.5.....2....4....4....1....14...10....7....7.....5......1

Equipment: Medusa Grenade Launcher OR Euryale Concussive Cannon OR Stheno Chain Gun
Special Rules: Medium Base, Weapon Platform
-Weapon Platform: This model may forfeit its movement to fire its weapon twice. Both Ranged Attack rolls suffer a -2 penalty. This model may fire at different targets with each of these attacks.

Medusa Grenade Launcher
Range: 8"; Str: 3/3; AoE 4"; Type: Explosive; Special Rules: Disorientating
-Medusa Grenades release a blinding flash upon detonating which is meant to stun and disorient the target.
-Disorientating: Any model hit by an attack from a Medusa Grenade Launcher suffers a -2 penalty on Ranged and Close Combat attacks for one round.

Euryale Concussive Cannon
Range: 12"; Str 5/3; AoE: 3"; Type: Ballistic; Special Rules: Repulsion
-The Euryale cannon releases a powerful shockwave which blasts aside anything within the shell's burst radius
-Repulsion: After resolving all hits and wounds done by the Euryale Concussive Cannon, models under the AoE are moved d3" directly away from the centre of the AoE.

Stheno Chain Gun
Range: 10"; Str 7; RoF: 1; Type: Ballistic; Special Rules: Demoralizing, Semi-Automatic
-Sntheno Chain Guns are designed to rip into both armoured targets and infantry alike, forcing them to take cover or be torn apart.

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Re: 0.3.4 Stat Line Feedback

Post by dragon1010 » Tue Sep 04, 2012 3:44 am

i think that i like voodoo's idea of weapon emplacements over the small handheld ones. it was more to separate them from the pmc heave weapons trooper.

now i just had an idea. i remember from an old forum something about vehicles. now im not saying lets roll out the tanks but what about something like a small support mech. something like an ig sentinel for all you 40k players. or maybe something even smaller. we wouldnt even need to make a whole new set of rules for it, just give it really high arm and low def. would that be something that anyone would be interested in?
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