I do not like the free strike

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Wiouds
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I do not like the free strike

Postby Wiouds » Thu May 03, 2012 7:53 pm

I did a few play tests with a faction that was most about CC (like the common ideal for the beasts faction) and this lead me to a problem.

The problem I had was once a squad strong in CC gets into CC combat with a weak squad then the strong squad wins. That understandable but it become too unbalance you take into account the free attack the squad in CC gets. In other words it is all or nothing. You get in close you win else you lose.

I understand it could be more balance if CC got something to make up for the fact that range attack has the range. You do not want it where the range enemy can keep stepping back to use their better range after the other squad work to get a CC effective combat angle. I think that getting an extra attack is too much.

I also know there will be some that say that if someone is trying to get away from them then they would attack again. You can also see that it a person has already attack then the enemies could escape away while the person ready himself/herself to attack again.

To solve this I say that there could be a disengagement roll. The target number is a base number + your CC skill – your enemies CC skill. If the rolled number is lower then that squad can move out of the CC effective combat angle else they can only move close to the enemy squad.

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Phaedros
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Re: I do not like the free strike

Postby Phaedros » Thu May 03, 2012 8:02 pm

Okay buddy, please understand that topics that you make with a personal statement such as "I do not like the free strike" are not really gonna lead to a good conversation or even garner any attention as you've already stated your unwavering opinion.

The playtests you have been conducting are with your own fan-rules and fan-forces, they currently hold no bearing other than theoretics which currently are not being looked at with a magnifying glass by the greater majority of playtesters (I make this assumption as no one but you has stated a distaste for free strikes).

To once again explain: Every game I have ever played that allowed a model/unit to leave CC has allowed the opposing side a free strike, this extends through games such as WarmaHordes, Infinity, D&D, MechWarrior Clix, etc.

I will not go any further on the above lines as what I have to say may be deemed "not constructive" "inflammatory" or "trollish".

Please understand, if you have managed to get a CC Specialist into CC then he's going to do his job, this shouldn't be an easy win button (thus numbers will be balanced accordingly), but he has a job to do and no ranged weapon to speak of, and I'll say once more - IF a CC Specialist gets into CC with your bog-standard troops, something either went horribly wrong or you made an error in your best judgement (see the Playtest Vid for supporting evidence - Matt didn't pay any real noticeable attention to the stealthed Assassin and lost his HWS to it.)

That's all I have to say on this subject, once again, your opinion is noted in my book and I appreciate all of the work you've put in.

I hereby turn this discussion over to court of public opinion and Matt. ^_^

Edit: Didn't want to sound like I was just ranting so here's my 2 cents...

Free Strikes are fine, we're lucky there's not a penalty to the model/squad's defense for turning their back like in other games. ;)
Warning! I have posted on your thread!
I'm not a Troll, I'm just lacking in the tact department, also, I tend to wield the English language like a really big sledgehammer. No offense is usually intended.

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slaughtergames
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Re: I do not like the free strike

Postby slaughtergames » Fri May 04, 2012 11:54 am

Wiouds wrote:I think that getting an extra attack is too much.

well, you don't get an extra attack, you get +2 to its CC skill. which translates into a greater chance to hit, but the max (models*attacks) stays the same. you might have playtested it wrong, sorry.

i can see it's kinda nasty though, and another option could be a CC skill roll-off, but idk
"i buy me new deffkopta!!"
"waaaagh!"
"i did research, to find out how to minimize the randomness of the shock-attack gun."
"huh?"
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Phaedros
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Re: I do not like the free strike

Postby Phaedros » Fri May 04, 2012 6:21 pm

+2? Oh lord, I missed that rule, but yeah, free strikes are nasty things.

Again, don't get in CC unless you think you can actually win it.
Warning! I have posted on your thread!
I'm not a Troll, I'm just lacking in the tact department, also, I tend to wield the English language like a really big sledgehammer. No offense is usually intended.

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Chief
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Re: I do not like the free strike

Postby Chief » Fri May 04, 2012 10:37 pm

I am 100% with Phaedros on this one - we need something to punish you for getting into close combat beyond just one round of attacks, after which you can make a simple skill check and retreat.

Perhaps the +2 modifier isn't necessary, so the assassin could slip away from close combat with nondedicated melee specialists more easily, but the free strikes work - both from a realism perspective; you're not just going to stand there and watch as I run away and shoot you in the face, and in game; just look at Warmachine.

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Phaedros
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Re: I do not like the free strike

Postby Phaedros » Fri May 04, 2012 10:40 pm

After watching the 0.1.4 playtest 2 video, the Assassin isn't getting +2 to it's CC skill it's getting +2 to it's strength due to it's weapon, different ball game here, but still 14 CC is pretty beastly, and well deserved for a guy who has no range.
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Re: I do not like the free strike

Postby Dirvan » Sun May 06, 2012 8:00 am

I think that there needs to be this free attack. Otherwise close combat armies would struggle alot as they'd get into combat, get one round of attacks off and then have to face another round of shooting.
And I don't think that one extra attack is that huge a deal, look at how brutal 40k can be , if you flee from combat , sweeping advance , whole unit dead.

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Phaedros
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Re: I do not like the free strike

Postby Phaedros » Sun May 06, 2012 8:26 am

Dirvan wrote:I think that there needs to be this free attack. Otherwise close combat armies would struggle alot as they'd get into combat, get one round of attacks off and then have to face another round of shooting.
And I don't think that one extra attack is that huge a deal, look at how brutal 40k can be , if you flee from combat , sweeping advance , whole unit dead.


A max of 1 hit wouldn't be bad, but up to 3 can be, but then again, only the Assassin actually has the Melee skill necessary to hit the big numbers with good rolls in CC.
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slaughtergames
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Re: I do not like the free strike

Postby slaughtergames » Sun May 06, 2012 12:37 pm

Phaedros wrote:After watching the 0.1.4 playtest 2 video, the Assassin isn't getting +2 to it's CC skill it's getting +2 to it's strength due to it's weapon, different ball game here, but still 14 CC is pretty beastly, and well deserved for a guy who has no range.

yes, he gets extra strength from his weapon, but for the free strike any model also gets +2 skill:
rules 0.1.4 wrote:Leaving Combat
If a model leaves combat (i.e. moves out of base contact with another model that has aclose combat attack), then any enemy models that were in base contact with the model geta free close combat attack against it.This is a normal Close Combat Attack, but the attacker gets a +2 to his Close Combat Skillto represent the lowered defense of the model leaving combat.

mind you, eventhough i took it from sabet's rewrite, it should be correct.
"i buy me new deffkopta!!"
"waaaagh!"
"i did research, to find out how to minimize the randomness of the shock-attack gun."
"huh?"
"waaaagh!"
"WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGH!!"

Wiouds
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Re: I do not like the free strike

Postby Wiouds » Sun May 06, 2012 1:09 pm

End of page 7:
Leaving Combat
If a model leaves combat (i.e. moves out of base contact with another model that has a close combat attack), then any enemy models that were in base contact with the model get a free close combat attack against it.
This is a normal Close Combat Attack, but the attacker gets a +2 to his Close Combat Skill to represent the lowered defense of the model leaving combat.


I do not think that any squad should get a free attack.

As I wrote before I understand why they get it so I came up with disengage roll.

The basic of the disengage roll is if you want your squad to leave the effective CC combat angle of an enemy squad then you must make a roll and if you fail you can not leave the effective CC combat angle.

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Chief
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Re: I do not like the free strike

Postby Chief » Sun May 06, 2012 2:59 pm

Which is not nearly enough, given that your opponent has just spent 2-3 turns getting into close combat, while you have been raining fire down on them the whole time.

Also, it doesn't make sense - if you drop your guard and try to make a run for it, I will get many more chances to smack you than if we had just continued brawling it out.

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slaughtergames
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Re: I do not like the free strike

Postby slaughtergames » Sun May 06, 2012 5:01 pm

we could take both! *epic smiley face*

have a disengage roll, if you fail you're stuck, if you pass you get away - with backstabs!

though the extra attacks really shouldn't get any bonus in this case...
"i buy me new deffkopta!!"
"waaaagh!"
"i did research, to find out how to minimize the randomness of the shock-attack gun."
"huh?"
"waaaagh!"
"WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGH!!"

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Phaedros
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Re: I do not like the free strike

Postby Phaedros » Sun May 06, 2012 5:54 pm

slaughtergames wrote:we could take both! *epic smiley face*

have a disengage roll, if you fail you're stuck, if you pass you get away - with backstabs!

though the extra attacks really shouldn't get any bonus in this case...


I don't like the disengagement roll idea period, you either drop your guard, turn your back and try to make a run for it and possibly get stabbed or you tough it out. =P

Also, good to know the +2 is there, you're citing 0.1.4 right Wiouds?
Warning! I have posted on your thread!
I'm not a Troll, I'm just lacking in the tact department, also, I tend to wield the English language like a really big sledgehammer. No offense is usually intended.

Wiouds
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Re: I do not like the free strike

Postby Wiouds » Mon May 07, 2012 3:29 am

A person can get away very easy if the other person already attack and recover from their attack.

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Phaedros
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Re: I do not like the free strike

Postby Phaedros » Mon May 07, 2012 8:32 am

Wiouds wrote:A person can get away very easy if the other person already attack and recover from their attack.


Lol, I would say let's test this theory irl, but you're no were near by.

Take for example we're fighting, we're both using knives, I score a couple blows on you, you get me off-balance and make a run for it... I'll either chase you down, catch you and kill you, or I'll throw that knife and catch you in your back... dig? =P
Warning! I have posted on your thread!
I'm not a Troll, I'm just lacking in the tact department, also, I tend to wield the English language like a really big sledgehammer. No offense is usually intended.


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