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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 2:28 am 
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Shoot wrote:
Phaedros wrote:
D6's as many people have said, are A. Easy to come by, B. The standard by which all wargaming is conducted (From Risk to 40k, it's d6 all the way), and C. Statistically more challenging to get certain rolls (I.E. Double 1's for a Critical Success or Double 6's for a Critical Failure)

Awesome!
Three great reasons to change to another system!
I literally could not have said it better.
Many table top wargamers start out with Risk.
Many younger people (under 55) are spending time playing video games. In order for a table top game to have appeal with possible buyers it must draw upon the interest and thrill of a video game. It must have simple controls and good graphics, develop story but allow nearly complete control by the player.

New games need new fresh ideas and new fresh systems

From a copyright standpoint it is a lot less likely for anyone to say "Hey that's a knock off" and challenge infringement into a wargame if the rules of the game are similar (let's admit it now people, you maneuver, you shoot, and you get into hand to hand there isn't a whole lot of truly unique mechanics to war from the ancient Egyptians to playing Modern Warfare 3) but the dice rules are unique.

In design it is often encouraged to think outside the "normal". Well, we're designing a new game, so let's start with new ideas.
D6: been there done that
D20: currently used for Infinity


I understand your reasoning friend, however I've been there done that with systems that use d10's and d20's, and I still much rather prefer d6's, and if Matt were to entertain the idea of going with different dice that would require a bit of work tweaking the current numbers...

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 8:14 am 
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This discussion is great, but I highly doubt that I'll switch from using d6s.

I understand that other dice might be better, but the prevalence of d6s, as well as people just being used to them, makes me want to use them.


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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 8:46 am 
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Shoot wrote:
I agree that D6 are very prevalent, especially amongst war gamers but Dungeons and Dragons and many role playing games work in the D10 system.
D6 are the most common dice availible
D10 are also common especially in fantasy/gaming market

DnD is a d20 system, and at upper levels has you combine different die types for a single roll.

Worlds of Darkness uses the D10 system.

The previous edition of Shadowrun uses all d6 (don't know about the current edition)

Not having your customer have to buy yet another thing to play your game is a good thing.
Shoot wrote:
One thought would be to have 2 rule books 1 book for the D6 carry over and one that works with D10

Added cost for little to no gain.

Shoot wrote:
If you were to play any D6 war game using a D10 the extra 4 sides would not mess up the mechanics of the game.

True, you just have to readjust all the target numbers, and modifiers accordingly.
Shoot wrote:
What if the rules were to use both D6 and D10? too confusing? (Games workshop uses scatter dice which are unique to their line)

That could be done, but for the additional complexity what are you gaining?

Shoot wrote:
By going with D10 it makes the game unique.

Sorry, it isn't unique, it has been done before.

Shoot wrote:
By going D10 it makes probability easier to calculate


Might I refer you to :
http://www.thedarkfortress.co.uk/tech_reports/2_dice_rolls.htm

Dice probability is fairly easy to calculate. When you start throwing in re-rolls, and roll 3 drop the higher, they can get a little trickier. But fundamentally they are pretty simple.
Shoot wrote:
By going D10 it makes it easy for new players

In what way? Having them have to go buy dice most of them don't have is a detractor from the game, and once they do have them, is generally irrelevant what your rolling as long as the target numbers have already been though out.

Shoot wrote:
By partnering with a dice company such as crystal caste or chessex the base rule book could include a box of D10 dice at a deeply discount price.


Partnering with another company adds complexity to the entire project, now you have 2 companies with different deadlines, possibly combined packaging, added time to work out deals. Doesn't seem worth it for a budding game.

Shoot wrote:
By using a rulebook that allows either or it increases the market to both those with D6 and D10.

True, however I'd put money that most people that have d10's have d6's, and most people that have d6's don't have d10's. d10's are much more uncommon.

Shoot wrote:
By using D10 sales of dice are increased.

Also true, however does miniwargaming make it's own dice? Do you work for a dice company?

Shoot wrote:
ONLY using D6 in the rules are more of a limiting factor to sales and there is no attempt to interest role play players. there is also no room to expand into role playing and still cross over into the table top war game.


Not true at all. Most mini games that have a role playing alternative (40k / Deathwatch) (Fantasy / Fantasy RPG) (DnD mini's / DnD) use different systems all together. From different dice, to some systems including cards. Then add on top of that that RPG's that only use d6's (shadowrun) exist...

Also add on role players tend to have an eclectic taste, and will get into near any game just because it sounds cool (at least the ones I've known of my life) and I don't think there is anything stopping them, other then getting the rule book and the figures, besides, we already know most of them have d6's handy.

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 8:55 am 
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With a game with as many layers and tactical thought that DP offers, it is best to use a dice system that a large percent of all wargamers are accustomed too. This is a game that is going to require you to think about tactics more so than most games out there, and to throw in a new dice system will only serve to make the learning curve steeper for new players.

I tried to get into Infinity, but, not having a d20 on hand or a place that I could easily pick some up, it turned me off and I ended up selling off my Infinity stuff, despite how interesting the game seemed.

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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 3:40 pm 
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Few dices in starter set will resolve problem you had with Infinity.

When choosing type of dice to use, should be rather considered playability and simplicity of created system.

Keep discussion live. There is still a chance to convince Matt.
Whichever dices are going to be chosen I'm going to play DP. Mind that you will could not change your mind after game release, Matt.


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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 6:56 pm 
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Has any one even try a play test with a few different dice?


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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 7:07 pm 
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Wiouds wrote:
Has any one even try a play test with a few different dice?


Probably a few, the greater majority - no.

D6's are fine in my book, let's keep it simple and accessible, I spent $6 on 6 D20's roughly for Infinity.

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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 4:52 am 
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OmegaOm wrote:
I do not understand why 2 D6 are used.
I havnt watched all of the game testing the mechanics yet, but rolling 2 D6 does not give an equal chance of getting between 2 and 12.

Here are the chances of getting a particular number on 2D6


2 - 2.78%
3 - 5.56%
4 - 8.33%
5 - 11.11%
6 - 13.89%
7 - 16.67%
8 - 13.89%
9 - 11.11%
10 - 8.33%
11 - 5.56%
12 - 2.78%

This would make mechanics way more difficult to be fair.
Like the best sharpshooter, with the best shooting conditions, should have to roll a 7 to hit, and this still only give him a %17 chance to hit at max.

I personal believe that D10 are the bet to use. Just like in real life. The metric system is best.

1 to 10 gives more range of skill level then 1 to 6. and just rolling 2 D10 can give you a 1 to 100 roll quickly,



Honestly you just made the major point of using 2d6 abundantly clear. It has a higher probablity of producing the statistical average that other dice systems lack.

Warhammer (both kinds) that uses one dice has two main problems. One is randomness, with the odds of critial failure being somewhat high. The other is how much each singel stat matters. Space Marines, hitting on 3+ have great ballistic skill. Imperial Guard hitting on 4 however is rather meh. Especially when you can discount the 1 in terms of odds as it's a miss no matter what.

Two d6 puts more control in the players hand by letting them run the numbers in their head and having a higher probablity of actually making the average roll.

Also, miniature wargaming is expensive as is. Asking people to shell out even more JUST for your game is not a good business strategy.


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