6th Edition Apocalypse Conundrums

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bigoldfrog
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Re: 6th Edition Apocalypse Conundrums

Post by bigoldfrog » Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:08 pm

@ kernbanks

I assume it was a mistype to say 'D does D3 to gargantuan' when agreeing with my analysis, since I was claiming it doesn't.

And :D I agree. A s10 melta still has to roll 2+ to wound (3+ vs. a heirophant or the Daemon Lord of Nurgle), D does not. A gargantuan could conceivably get a cover save against a s10 melta (especially now that only 25% of the model needs to be hidden), but not against D. D hits harder.

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Re: 6th Edition Apocalypse Conundrums

Post by kernbanks » Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:59 am

On a second read... I'm now torn. Maybe too many beers yesterday while painting and trying to type and do homework... grad student life.

Looking at it again, i think the Gargantuan Resistance was possibly written to imply... eternal warrior doesn't save this huge beast from loosing all wounds, just d3. I don't like the idea of a D weapon only doing one wound - it doesn't make sense. for instance a vortex grenade, if i remember right just does d3 to gargantuans because of this rule... or am i mistaken again? sitting in classroom without books to reference.
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Re: 6th Edition Apocalypse Conundrums

Post by bigoldfrog » Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:43 pm

Vortex Grenade does do D3 structure points to Superheavies, and D6 wounds to Gargantuans.

One of my mates brought up a similar point to yours Kernbanks.
While I thought that the presence of the rule 'Eternal Warrior' meant the big guys were immune to instant death, and that its presence must be purposeful by Forge World, because if one takes out the Eternal Warrior rule from the gargantuan creature abilities, the Gargantuan Resistance functions exactly the same (gargantuans cannot be instantly killed, but take D3 wounds), rendering Eternal Warrior pointless-

My buddy thought that this was yet another oversight by GW/FW who are renown for sloppy/ contradictory rules writing. Eternal warrior is there to remind us that they can't be insta-murdered, but they still take D3 wounds.

We ended up just dicing off.

Where much of my fervor comes from (besides having 21000 points of Nids before any upgrades, that won't be coming to Apocalypticon.. this year):
I look at a scenario that could have happened last year; An'ggrath and his retinue of Bloodthirsters are partying around the battlefield. Someone drops a D template on the lot of them. All of them are Eternal Warriors, all of them have a 4+ invul save, but An'ggrath is going to take twice as much damage on average, simply because he's a bigger version of them. I don't think this was Forge World's intention with Gargantuan Resistance.
In my mind, for the cost of 3.5 bloodthirsters, dying 1 D shot quicker (on average) than a single bloodthirster combined with the amount of D in Apocalypse, doesn't add up. This gets worse when one starts to look at gargantuans without much of an invul save.
Even if the people in the field of thought like my buddy above are correct, I'd still say houserule against D3 wounds; gargantuan's do not have the stats/abilities to respond adequately to losing D3 wounds per D (I'd say they aren't costed appropriately, but at Apocalypticon cost doesn't matter much). All of them need to cross the field to engage the enemy, where close combat is no protection. At D3 wounds per hit, they won't make it and won't absorb even as much damage as many non-gargantuans, and some of them don't come with handy biocannons and won't have even scratched the enemy before falling; not very epic at all.
Even the mentioned An'ggrath only needs 8 D hits, the output of two warhounds or 1 Reaver in a single turn (at D3). Should An'ggrath go first, fly 24" and charge he'll kill whatever fodder is acting screen and then eat those D shots while any unengaged screen that managed to survive moved away in the movement phase (or if it's me, crowded around because I want my zombies to die....)

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Re: 6th Edition Apocalypse Conundrums

Post by crashcanuck » Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:43 am

A couple D weapons sounds pretty reasonable to be needed to take down something like An'ggrath, Apocalypse is about throwing everything you have at the enemy and hoping you are the one with some guys still standing in the end.

That's also what Invul saves are there for, to protect things like that.

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Re: 6th Edition Apocalypse Conundrums

Post by Marit Lage » Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:29 am

Except template weapons can't touch Anggrath while he's flying, as he is now a gargantuan flying creature.
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Re: 6th Edition Apocalypse Conundrums

Post by bigoldfrog » Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:51 pm

@ Marit Lage Good point, forgot about that. Unfortunately of the various 10 gargantuans only 3 can fly (Daemon Lords of Khorn and Tzeench and the Harridan... though I believe the Harridan doesn't get full 'flier' status for whatever reasons).
Also, if An'ggrath has charged, which is the only way he'll do damage, he won't be 'flying'. My example above is still somewhat applicable to demonstrate the impotence of gargantuans at D3 (he actually does move 24" without the 'Flier' rule!! :) )

@ Crashcanuck I agree with you on the idea that focus fire, D or otherwise, is the name of the Apocalypse game to bring down a gargantuan.
I disagree that 8 D shots, or the output of 2 Warhounds or 1 Reaver, 1500 points, in a single turn, with no way other than extreme luck for An'ggrath to avoid or prevent it, is an appropriate amount.
As I mentioned, there are non-gargantuan entities who would take longer than this to bring down. Any 3 wound character with Eternal Warrior and a Storm Shield will last longer, all the greater daemons will, Sanguinius will, etc. (not to mention that 5" D blast templates can easily deviate off of these models, not so with a gargantuan).
The mighty heirophant only takes 6 D shots (at D3), Lysander takes 12 (if none of the templates deviate). The heirophant would still only take 12 shots.. well not only, that is a lot of D.. if not D3.

As for invul saves -
On An'ggrath: The 8 shots includes the 4+ invul.

8 D shots / 2 (4+ invul) * D3 (or 2 on average) = 8 wounds. An'ggrath has 8 wounds.
He'd still only need 16 hits if not D3; 2 turns by a Reaver or 2 Warhounds.

On the Bloodthirster standing right next to him:

10 D shots / 2 (4+ invul) = 5 wounds. Bloodthirsters have 5 wounds.

Dying quicker than his little buddies is sadface epic :(

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Re: 6th Edition Apocalypse Conundrums

Post by Aegis » Sat Mar 02, 2013 3:57 pm

@Bigoldfrog: While you are essentially right that it seems like he folds easily, consider the trade off...

You keep mentioning that it would take the compliment of 2 warhound titans, or a single reaver titan to take him out in one turn. What about the stuff those titans are now not firing at? Also, and I cannot be 100% sure right now as the book is elsewhere, I am fairly confident that An'ggrath cost less than the titans mentioned. As such, it would seem a pretty poor trade off in the long run.

Now, I personally do not come down on any one side of this discussion, as I have yet to have a gargantuan across the table from me at Apocalypticon. I just wanted to bring in a different perspective I had not seen mentioned.
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Re: 6th Edition Apocalypse Conundrums

Post by kernbanks » Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:31 pm

@bullfrog
You've won me over with sound logic in the face of what I think is rules as written... Good on you Sir.

Matt and the MWG crew, you have heard... we have spoken. Ok... some have spoken and the dispute remains yours to decide upon.
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Re: 6th Edition Apocalypse Conundrums

Post by bigoldfrog » Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:16 pm

@ Aegis Superb points imo.
Two Warhounds or one Reaver is 1500 points, An’ggrath is 888 points. Though, destroying him in 1 turn leaves 4 other turns to be dropping those 8 D 5” templates. I at least, would be happy with such a result for a turn’s output. Worse (for An’ggrath), if something else is on the table presenting a bigger threat (e.g. a Shadowsword that could put the hurt on the Reaver/Warhounds this turn), the Reaver could nuke that and take out An’ggrath next turn since An’ggrath has to come to the Reaver to touch it.
Further (not so much in relation to what you said but something I just thought of for everybody), An’ggrath and the Tzeench daemon lord are usually considered the best point-for-point gargantuans. They can fly, they have decent invul saves… all the other gargantuans, who make up the majority of the gargantuans seen at Apocalypticon, are not so lucky on either account. Giant T-Rex’s- rather Squiggoth’s, bio titans, the walking daemon lords, Gnarlacks, all fall on the wrong side of the ‘dies too quickly’ equation when looking at how D effects An’ggrath. A hierophant dying to 6 D shots is not what Gargantuan Resistance, which otherwise exists to help a Gargantuan, was created for (imo).

@ Kernbanks Yay! Happyface!!!

@ Everyone -

I believe fundamentally that if we were to engage in an Apocalypse game in the hallowed halls of my garage, where 400+ model Endless Swarms have been seen, that ye all who think Instant Death, and by extension D, inflicts D3 wounds to Gargantuan Creatures, would be dicing off with myself and those of a mind like mind, who do not so think.
I believe this because we’re no longer discussing the writ of the rules, but the spirit. This is appropriate because the rules for Gargantuan Resistance are seemingly vague and Apocalypse was more about dice rolling and carnage than fairness than even 6th edition 40k. As a result looking at points values and ‘running the math’ doesn’t result in anything much productive.

For Apocalypticon I hope Miniwargaming will weigh in on our discourse and give final decision. Here I’ll summarise why I, and those who think along my lines, believe Instant Death does not and should not inflict D3 wounds. I’ll leave all other summery opposing my thoughts to others, as I could not do them justice.

The rules as written state not that the gargantuan suffers D3 wounds every time it suffers an attack with the Instant Death rule, but that “ … if affected by any attack that would normally kill a model automatically…“. Gargantuan creatures are Eternal Warriors, they are immune to Instant Death. Since they are immune to Instant Death, Gargantuan Creatures will not be instantly killed by attacks with the Instant Death rule. As such, they would not take D3 wounds either.

There are four reasons why Eternal Warrior preventing gargantuan’s suffering D3 wounds is purposeful by Forge World:
1) If Gargantuan Resistance ‘overrules’ Eternal Warrior, then whether or not a gargantuan creature is an Eternal Warrior, it suffers D3 wounds from at attack with the ‘Instant Death’ rule. This means having Eternal Warrior in the gargantuan’s ability line is pointless. In addendum, this line of reasoning requires that Forge World meant “Instant Death” when they wrote “instantly kills”, or were including “Instant Death” under the heading “instantly kills”.

2) Throughout the 6th edition Apocalypse update, Forge World uses Games Workshop rules terminology and language. As example: “… all gargantuan creatures have the Terrifying special rule.”, “Gargantuan Creatures have the Smash and Hammer of Wrath (D3) rules…”, “…any number of transported infantry may Deep Strike…”. They capitalise rules and entities referenced in their own or GW’s rulebooks, e.g. “In the Assault phase, Super Heavy Walkers move 12”, exactly as if they were Gargantuan Creatures (see Appendix II), except that their maximum movement may be reduced by Drive Damaged….”. Without exception in the update this is so.
Most specific to the discussion, the wording of Destroyer Weapons: “If a Destroyer hits a non-vehicle model, there is no need to roll to wound- it automatically scores a wound with the Instant Death rule.”
Forge World uses instant death in the same manner as all of their rules references. They knew Eternal Warrior meant gargantuan creatures would be immune to Instant Death when they wrote Gargantuan Resistance.
If Forge World wanted Instant Death to cause D3 wounds, they would have said so specifically as they had throughout the rest of the 6th edition update, instead of using the non-capitalised term ‘instantly kills’.

3) Suppose one believes that Forge World included Instant Death under the heading ‘any attack that instantly kills’, then it is extremely poor form of them to not include Instant Death as one of their examples of an attack that instantly kills. Instant Death is by far the most common means to instantly kill a model, all the more so in Apocalypse with the presence of Destroyer weapons, which are attacks with the Instant Death rule. Further, they gave gargantuan creatures Eternal Warrior, immunity to attacks with the Instant Death rule, which would cause confusion (and as I demonstrated, Forge World was purposeful in their rules creation). Yet Forge World chose to give the extremely rare examples “…because of a failed Characteristic test or unique dice roll result…” (all the rarer because gargantuan creatures have near spell immunity), heavily suggesting that Instant Death could not be given as an example, meaning gargantuan creatures are immune to Instant Death.

4) When trying to discern what Forge World meant with ‘instantly kills’, the wording of Gargantuan Resistance indicates that it is suppose to be a boon to gargantuan creatures: “Because of their massive bulk…”, “..because they are so large and powerful…”. It seems the rule is to reflect their massive size procuring for them resistance to damage, not to take more of it. Further, the first two stanzas in Gargantuan Resistance are positive effects, and the third starts off with “In addition, because they are so large and powerful..”, suggesting that the third stanza too would be positive.
Opposite to this is to say “… because they are so large and powerful” gargantuan creatures take twice as much damage from attacks with the Instant Death rule, as non-gargantuan Eternal Warriors.

In summary, the rules as written as well as intended by Forge World are not for gargantuan creatures to suffer D3 wounds to attacks with the Instant Death rule, but for these monstrosities to suffer D3 wounds to other kinds of attacks that instantly kill.

The spirit of the rule (game):
Gargantuan creatures, like their superheavy counterparts, cost a lot of money, and take many hours to assemble and paint. Putting one on the battlefield conjures for its owner ideas of this towering figure wading into enemy lines, smashing whole units of infantry and ripping bristling tanks apart with carnal enjoyment. Soaking up hundreds of bullets, las-beams, shells and other means of projectile death, bludgeoning a ruinous path across the battlefield to eventually, climatically fall to the cheers of its opponents.
In reality, none of the gargantuan creatures kill their points worth of enemy troops. Google this for corroboration. They all rely very heavily on close combat for destruction, meaning they can only inflict their attacks characteristic worth (or stomp attack if enough are in base to base contact) on those they manage to touch. They need to survive the enemy’s fire before unleashing their hurt, they need to move to their targets which can be well spaced, they need to avoid the traps laid in their path. They can suffer from small to medium arms fire, pending on their toughness, as they move about to assault; arms that likely didn’t have the range or strength to touch the harder hitting Super Heavies in the same force as the gargantuan.
If Destroyer Weapons inflict D3 wounds, Gargantuan Creatures are easily killable for little effort. They cannot result in titillating delusions for their controller, or cheers for their vanquishing enemy. What’s the point of prioritising shorter range fire on them, laying Hammernator traps or dedicating a few minutes strategic thought to their demise, if 4-8 D shots kill them? They will fall so fast they cannot unleash any hurt and will add little to the experience for either player.

Gargantuan creatures are reliably tough. They do not suffer Drive Damaged or Crew Shaken, they cannot have their weapons destroyed, they resist D weapons more efficiently than similarly priced Superheavy’s. To non-Destroyer fire they may be more easily destroyed than similarly costing super-heavies, but until that last wound is removed these beasts operate at 100% efficiency. That is the crux of their singular strength. Superheavy’s can grossly outshoot them hands down, avoid enemy shorter range weapons by product of the range of their own weapons, survive as much as, or more, or far more enemy ranged strength based output, and more easily exist in a synergistic formation with protective encircling cohorts than the swiftly attacking gargantuans. Superheavies with at least a 60” reach on their primary weapon can be guaranteed to first strike, and in 6th 40k superheavies no longer remove half your army when they explode.
But gargantuans are reliably tough, it takes more D hits to kill them than similarly priced Superheavies, leaving it to the common soldiers to more efficiently bring down the beasts. This is a good thing.
Giving the numerous D weapons that dot Apocalypticon boards the ability to inflict D3 wounds per hit on Gargantuan creatures, takes away this singular advantage, as Gargantuan’s will then die faster than Superheavies to all types of fire, and die so quickly that operating at 100% efficiency means little; that piece of positive emotion for their controller and source of interest for their opponents.

Finally, in being reliably tough, Gargantuan Creatures should have the feeling of being harder to kill than non gargantuan eternal warriors. This is reflected in the relative points and the size of the models. If D inflicts D3 wounds, exercising this amount of damage at incredible, unavoidable ranges, every regular Eternal Warrior with a 3++ save will be tougher to kill than a gargantuan, even if the regular is deployed outside a unit and all incoming D templates do not deviate. Even in this circumstance only a newbie would allow, the regular Eternal Warrior lives longer. This is not epic.

I believe, whether Forge World meant for Destroyer Weapons to inflict D3 wounds or not, that gargantuan Creatures being immune to Instant Death, not suffering D3 wounds, is a good thing.

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Re: 6th Edition Apocalypse Conundrums

Post by kernbanks » Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:53 pm

well said... MWG.com???
~Kernbanks

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Re: 6th Edition Apocalypse Conundrums

Post by miniwargaming » Mon Mar 04, 2013 10:50 am

From what I can see, D weapons would do one wound to Gargantuans. We can dispute balance all we like, but the rules seem pretty clear.

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Re: 6th Edition Apocalypse Conundrums

Post by bigoldfrog » Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:02 pm

Wonderful! 10 Heirophants here I come! Immediately following; insolvency...

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Re: 6th Edition Apocalypse Conundrums

Post by Aegis » Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:05 pm

bigoldfrog wrote:Wonderful! 10 Heirophants here I come! Immediately following; insolvency...
That is future you's problem. Live in the now!
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Re: 6th Edition Apocalypse Conundrums

Post by bigoldfrog » Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:30 pm

Carpe diem taken to a whole new level :D

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Re: 6th Edition Apocalypse Conundrums

Post by kernbanks » Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:51 pm

That's how uncle sam has been rolling...
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