6th Edition Apocalypse Conundrums

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Aegis
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Re: 6th Edition Apocalypse Conundrums

Post by Aegis » Sat Nov 03, 2012 2:45 pm

They are powerful, but killable. I think their biggest strengths come from when they are leading their own legion, as opposed to just being on their own. Having said that, a Primarch is about the only thing that can stand up to another primarch reliably. Maybe Draigo, too...
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Re: 6th Edition Apocalypse Conundrums

Post by bigoldfrog » Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:50 pm

Deadlier than Draigo, that's damn impressive.

Reading some of the older posts in this thread, how does one get a 10k installation? Is there an Apocalypse class fortress I don't know about, a White Dwarf article, etc.?
I thought Fortress of Redemption with all the bells and whistles was the most expensive one could go.

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Re: 6th Edition Apocalypse Conundrums

Post by Aegis » Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:20 pm

bigoldfrog wrote:Deadlier than Draigo, that's damn impressive.

Reading some of the older posts in this thread, how does one get a 10k installation? Is there an Apocalypse class fortress I don't know about, a White Dwarf article, etc.?
I thought Fortress of Redemption with all the bells and whistles was the most expensive one could go.
I cannot recall which Imperial Armour book, but you can buy fortress walls. Basically, they are divided into segments (wall, gate house), with attached points cost and upgrades.

Upgrades can consist of Interceptor/skyfire autocannons or lascannons, bunkers and heavy bolters. You can also build and pay for as many segments as you have. Each segment, if I recall correctly, has 4 structure points at Armour 14, plus capacity for units to be placed inside complete with fire points.

My plan is to build roughly 8 feet of walls (not sure if I will do a second gatehouse or not), each two feet in length, complete with autocannons to deal with those pesky fliers. Then, I want to add two or three skyshields, a couple planetary defense lasers, and Aegis defense lines for additional anti air. Basically, in the end, I want to make a no fly zone complete with walls. All said an done, I figured 10k is a good number to shoot for, and means I might finally get to fight me some Titans.

Because that is the only sane and rational idea in these games. To fight a titan...

Is something wrong with me?
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Re: 6th Edition Apocalypse Conundrums

Post by xzandrate » Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:45 pm

I'm still hoping we are going to see a good Apocalypse update book come from GW, or Forgeworld at worse. Here's my feedback.

Flyers, I think the current rules are fine. The only addendum I'd make is to the reserves rules they instituted last year. Reserves were only able to come on from your board edge, or the board edge to either side of you. If we extend that and say flyers can only return to the board on the board it left, or the board to either side I think that should solve the movement issue.

The one thing I really want to see addressed next year is the Strategic Assets. It needs to be an all or nothing deal. Let us buy them based upon our points thresholds, or something similar, or have none at all. It was entirely disheartening to see virtually every imperial army have a vortex grenade because of formations are predominantly imperial, with some Chaos options.
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Re: 6th Edition Apocalypse Conundrums

Post by Pssyche » Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:34 pm

I don t really get that.
I play a lot of Apocalypse and the new Flyers Rules work just fine.

As for Strategic Assets, I agree that an update is needed to being them into 6th Edition.
And also to get rid of, once and for all, "Flank March" and "Replacements".
They spoil Apocalypse and are only ever used by LAZY players.

Imagine.
There you are, you've just managed to get rid of a Phantom Titan.
It's gone Apocalyptic and wiped out through its attacks and explosion maybe 4,000 Points of your force.
You congratulate yourself on finally managing to take down such a behemoth whilst lamenting the cost to your force
...and then it walks back on next turn without so much as a scratch...
...All 2,500 points of it...
...Only now you've got nothing capable of fighting it...

But, that aside, you never bought Strategic Assets.
Each side gets a number of Assets equal to the number of players in the team with the most players.
So, 1v1 each team gets 1 Asset.
3v2, both teams get 3 Assets.

Then there are bonus Assets that come with Formations and for having a large difference in points values between the two teams.

But you didn't ever buy them.
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Re: 6th Edition Apocalypse Conundrums

Post by Aegis » Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:27 pm

On the subject of stratagems, I am on the fence. On one hand, I have rarely dealt with stratagems in which I felt they were game breaking (save replacements) in the apoc. games MWG hosts. A lot of this comes down to the fact players may only take ones gained through formations.

Having said that, I agree that a lot of the really potent ones are predominantly gained through Imperial formations, which make things a bit heavy handed. As such, it does create an interesting power-gaming conundrum.

Of course, the next thing to mention is that even with imperial formations giving certain stratagems, the Imperials are sitting at a W1L2 record right now, so I am not sure how much of an imbalance they truly are.
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Re: 6th Edition Apocalypse Conundrums

Post by Pssyche » Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:23 am

"A lot of this comes down to the fact players may only take ones gained through formations."

That is a great idea!

In this instance Assets such as "Flank March" become acceptable, not game breaking.
I've tried to get this as a Houserule at Games Workshop Manchester for multiplayer Apocalypse games, until I'm blue in the face.
Unfortunately, the members of staff there do not comprehend that the game mechanics and strategies of Apocalypse are completely different to Standard 40K.
So, you end up with a game where one day everybody gets three Assets to begin with. Another day, there are no Assets, no Formations and their Bonus Assets & Special Rules, all Reserves arrive on Turn One, only six Structure Points per Player, No D-Weapons allowed and the Force Organisation Chart strictly adhered to.

That's all because of two idiots called Tom and Keir, running the games.
One who does it because it serves to enlarge his already bloated ego and the other to extend his "Unbeaten Run-Who Can Stop Me?"

Funnily enough, neither have ever turned up to play me in a challenge yet...
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Re: 6th Edition Apocalypse Conundrums

Post by Dragon » Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:58 am

Pssyche wrote:I don t really get that.
I play a lot of Apocalypse and the new Flyers Rules work just fine.

As for Strategic Assets, I agree that an update is needed to being them into 6th Edition.
And also to get rid of, once and for all, "Flank March" and "Replacements".
They spoil Apocalypse and are only ever used by LAZY players.

I use Flank March. I am not a lazy player. My Ravenwing Flank March all the time. I use flank march for fluff reasons.
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Re: 6th Edition Apocalypse Conundrums

Post by bigoldfrog » Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:56 pm

@ Psyyche Flank March isn't nearly as game altering at Apocalypticon as it is in a regular Apocalypse game, otherwise I'd also lament its inclusion.
This last year each player had about 8300 points to deploy on a 4' wide front to take on an enemy 8300 points on a 4' wide front. As a result there is far less room to bring on your reserves behind enemy lines (even in later turns because of huge reserves), and what you do bring on will be facing a lot of pain that oft times had nowhere else to direct its ire.
If the asset is to be amended (and only if) I'd push that the controlling players of this asset should avail the three enemy players this asset can affect, of its existence before deployment (instead of when used).

@ Aegis - Killing titans is fun... yesssss.. they go boom!

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Re: 6th Edition Apocalypse Conundrums

Post by Pssyche » Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:07 pm

Dragon - "I use Flank March. I am not a lazy player. My Ravenwing Flank March all the time. I use flank march for fluff reasons."

I am sure you're not what I consider to be a "Lazy Player"

However.
Pretty much every player I play in Apocalypse uses the Flank March Strategic Asset the first time that they play me and tries to justify it as being "Fluffy", whilst going "huh-huh-huh..." to themselves in true Beavis & Butthead style.
That's every type of Space Marine, Imperial Guard, Chaos, Necrons, Tyranids and Tau.
I'm sure it's "Fluffy" for all the other factions too, but I've never played them in Apocalypse.
In fact "Flank March" is so utterly commonplace it should come as standard, whether you want it or not.

Gosh!
My opponent's poor little face when my Strategic Asset turns out to be "Disrupter Beacon" 90% of the time.
I get to place around half (4+ roll) of their Reserves exactly where I want them to enter play.
Usually, bunched up in a nice tight little corner at the rear of their Deployment Zone.
It's great, shooting them to pieces as they try to break out.

The other 10% of the time, I usually choose "Eldar Waygate" which, bearing in mind I play Eldar exclusively and no other faction can take it, I find to be reassuringly Fluffy and considered.



Bigoldfrog - I like your houserule regarding Flank March which most certainly tones it down a shade
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Re: 6th Edition Apocalypse Conundrums

Post by Vache Glace » Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:01 am

I think that it's perfectly fine to have Flank March. (Especially since you cannot assault anymore)

In fact, due to the 1" rule you can quite easily pack your back board to make coming on your edge quite difficult/impossible.

I used to take http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_Cus ... nclave.pdf to combat it but it was banned for good reason.

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Re: 6th Edition Apocalypse Conundrums

Post by Aegis » Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:45 pm

@Vache: Might just be me, but I hardly see an issue with that formation. It is pricey and unwieldly, but that may just be.
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Re: 6th Edition Apocalypse Conundrums

Post by bigoldfrog » Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:07 pm

@ Psyyche - I liked the houserule too, as having reserves come on the sides of each board, which are effectively the middle of the battlefield for most players (since the boards line up long edge to long edge), would be bizarre. I can't take credit for it though, it's a Miniwargaming rule.

@ Vache - Is there an errata/ faq I haven't seen? As far as I thought, a unit could assault on the turn it arrived from strategic reserves/ regular reserves.

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Re: 6th Edition Apocalypse Conundrums

Post by Aegis » Thu Nov 15, 2012 4:45 pm

In 6th edition, they changed the rule so that you cannot assault the turn you arrive via reserves or disembark. Hurts assault heavy armies somewhat, but it is what it is.
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Re: 6th Edition Apocalypse Conundrums

Post by bigoldfrog » Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:17 pm

I see where the discrepancy lies; I only have the small Rulebook, and GW forgot to include the sentence 'models arriving from reserves may not charge...'.
Is there a similar rule in the big rulebook stating that models cannot disembark if the transport came in from reserves, as the small book says models can disembark from transports arriving via Deep Strike?

Not being able to assault from reserves does nerf flank march a touch... and my genestealer horde... poor purple blighters.

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