6th Edition Apocalypse Conundrums

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Vache Glace
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6th Edition Apocalypse Conundrums

Post by Vache Glace » Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:02 pm

I know next year is still a far ways away but here is a list of compiled conundrums I have discovered concerning the 4th to 6th changes in Apoc. (Hopefully they will just release a new book sometime this year)

PS: Here are the official Forgeworld Apoc rules for 6th http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/P ... update.pdf

1. No current rules for gargantuan flyers
S: Use MCF rules?

2. How does the Superheavy damage table work? (not the explosion)
S: Use the current apoc one or modified rulebook?

3. Will incompatible apoc datasheets from GW (because of 6th) be disallowed?
S: Assuming yes

4. How will Allies work? Desperate and up? Fluffy considerations with a new MWG chart?
S: unknown

5. Apoc explosions are FAR less potent now.
S: Houserule stronger explosions?

6. Flyers are now nerfed considerably with the no -12” for regular shooting and movement now in the rulebook instead of anywhere on the board
S: I would say that being able to move anywhere would be more fun and interesting


Other things I also noticed:

- Hull points = Structure Points x3, (note you can still take off full SP with certain weapons)
-Primary Weapons are buffed
-Entropic Strike is as it was ruled
-Gargantuan creatures got crazy buffed
-10” S10 or D blasts with AP 1 will now be ridiculous being +2/3 to the table (3+ to get chain reaction!) and will hit all vehicles under them at full strength instead of just those under the middle.

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Pssyche
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Re: 6th Edition Apocalypse Conundrums

Post by Pssyche » Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:29 pm

I've put my comments in red.
Hope you find them helpful.


1. No current rules for gargantuan flyers
S: Use MCF rules?

I've no comment for this one. I'd have to agree with you.


2. How does the Superheavy damage table work? (not the explosion)
S: Use the current apoc one or modified rulebook?

If you read the section headed "Structure Points" in Appendix I of the FAQ it is clear that we now use the Vehicle Damage Table in the BRB.


3. Will incompatible apoc datasheets from GW (because of 6th) be disallowed?
S: Assuming yes

Pretty much all of the current Forgeworld Datasheets were updated in January with the release of Apocalypse Second Edition and the follow up Downloadable PDF Vehicle Updates.


4. How will Allies work? Desperate and up? Fluffy considerations with a new MWG chart?
S: unknown

I'd leave this up to the Tournament/Game Organiser.
I'd certainly allow combinations that the Rulebook doesn't allow for, such as Genestealer Cults being a mixture of Imperial Guard with Tyranid Allies. Although that'd be on a case by case basis, with the TO decision final.



5. Apoc explosions are FAR less potent now.
S: Houserule stronger explosions?

I wouldn't House Rule against the Apocalypse Explosion! result on the new Catastrophic Damage Chart in the FAQ Appendix I.
My reason being that, and I have seen this happen, an army consisting of predominantly Infantry, with no specialised Anti-Super Heavy Vehicle Weaponry, manage to take down for example a Titan.
The Titan then explodes taking out not only the Infantry assaulting the Titan but half of the models on the table. The Infantry-only side loses maybe 70% of its starting models and then the Titan walks straight back on the next turn with the Replacements Strategic Asset.
It's right and proper that assaulting and taking down a Titan be a suicide mission, but it's unfair to lose your whole army.


6. Flyers are now nerfed considerably with the no -12” for regular shooting and movement now in the rulebook instead of anywhere on the board
S: I would say that being able to move anywhere would be more fun and interesting

I enjoyed the old aircraft rules immensely, but having played using the new rules, they are infinitely better, in my opinion. Dogfights are particularly good fun as you fight for air-supremacy.



Other things I also noticed:

- Hull points = Structure Points x3, (note you can still take off full SP with certain weapons)

If you roll the Explodes! result on the Vehicle Damage Chart then the Super Heavy loses a Structure Point, you reset the Hull Point count to 0 and you then roll again on the Damage Chart.


-Primary Weapons are buffed
-Entropic Strike is as it was ruled
-Gargantuan creatures got crazy buffed


-10” S10 or D blasts with AP 1 will now be ridiculous being +2/3 to the table (3+ to get chain reaction!) and will hit all vehicles under them at full strength instead of just those under the middle.

I don't know where you get the +3 to the table from.
AP 2 is +1 on the Vehicle Damage Chart, AP1 is +2.
You are right about Vehicles being hit at full strength whether they are under the hole or not.
But this was always the case with Destroyer Weapons, anyway.


I hope that I've helped in some way and I'd be interested to see how it works out for you.
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Re: 6th Edition Apocalypse Conundrums

Post by Vache Glace » Wed Oct 17, 2012 3:23 pm

Hey thanks for the response

-Strength D is the extra +1 to get 3+ chain reaction

-The datasheets I was referring to http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/conte ... Id=3400020 They'll probably be fine as is though.

-The extra explosions was a MWG apoc thing to cause extra carnage. You are right that it annihilates nearby infantry but you can gameplan accordingly (i.e. lots of invuls, lots of transports, lots of mobile cover, lots of EW, play Daemons, etc.)

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Re: 6th Edition Apocalypse Conundrums

Post by Pssyche » Wed Oct 17, 2012 6:21 pm

Hi Vache,
Destroyer Weapons gave +1 to the Damage Chart roll in the original Apocalypse book, but bear in mind that was released at the back end of Fourth Edition.

If you check out the current downloadable PDF "Forge World Imperial Armour Apocalypse Update" which brings Apocalypse up to date with Sixth Edition, Appendix IV, paragraph headed Destroyer, there is no mention of any +1 anymore.
There is also no longer a Super Heavy Damage Table. So we use the vehicle Damage Table from the BRB.
And there is a revised Catastrophic Damage Table.
So, I'm afraid, we just have to put up with the respective AP Bonuses for the Weapons, only.

And, seeing as I'm sending this from my phone, I've been a right idiot and forgotten to check out the link you provided.
I'll have a look later and come back.
Last edited by Pssyche on Thu Oct 18, 2012 1:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 6th Edition Apocalypse Conundrums

Post by Pssyche » Wed Oct 17, 2012 6:38 pm

Had a look and yes, many will be showing their age.

What I would suggest is that you definitely download all four PDFs from Forgeworld.
Apocalypse.
Characters.
Psykers.
Vehicles.

I'd also have a look at the Aeronautica book and the Apocalypse Second Edition on the site.
If you look at the random images they showcase, they usually have the Contents Pages.
At least you can see a list of what's definitely been brought up to date.

Hope that's helped some.
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Re: 6th Edition Apocalypse Conundrums

Post by Aegis » Sun Oct 21, 2012 12:58 pm

For the most part, we can simply use the updates that forgeworld has provided for 6th edition apocalypse. After all, the fact they have updated the rules to be more in line with what we see in the core rules is a boon, especially for people who do not play a lot of apoc. games. Means things can be decided on a bit faster, and maybe even speed up the game a bit.

As for flyers, I am with you there, a bit. On one hand, the new flyer rules make them far more manageable for armies to take down, what with restricted flight paths and the removal of the -12" to range. On the other hand, I do so loved the move anywhere ability of flyers. The fact that we had dog fights happening over a number of tables was a lot of fun. Not to mention the ability to move off and support another table if needed.

I would gladly petition for the flyers to remove the movement penalty, but keep everything else in line with the core rules.
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Re: 6th Edition Apocalypse Conundrums

Post by Pssyche » Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:27 pm

However you end up playing it out, I hope it all goes well and I look forward to a battle report.
Wish I could be there to take part.
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Re: 6th Edition Apocalypse Conundrums

Post by Vache Glace » Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:11 pm

Other things to think about:

Warlord traits (1 per army, per point level?)

Fortifications (1 per army, per point level? Too many of these would be crazy)

Flank March (What does it do now? Glorified Outflank?)

Night Fighting (With new rules how do units that can buff or deny this affect the game?)

Just a thought.

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Re: 6th Edition Apocalypse Conundrums

Post by Pssyche » Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:30 pm

Warlord traits.
I'd go one per army.
After all, the "Warlord" is meant to represent you. I'd also have it that any buffs that the Warlord benefits from can only affect him and units chosen from his Codex.


Fortifications.
I'd let people waste their points on these.
Once the Super Heavies start firing, they won't last long.

Strategic Assets in general.
Don't forget, each team gets one chosen Strategic Asset per player on the team with the greater number of Players.
Example: 3 v 2 game, both teams get 3 Assets. Each team can only have an Asset once, unless it also gets it from a Formation.
I'd ban both Flank March and Replacements from being a player's Strategic Asset of choice.
They are for Lazy Players. Seriously Lazy Players.
I would only allow them if they were part of a Formation's Special Rules.

As for the "Standard" Outflank Universal Special Rule, I'd allow that, no problem.
Personally, I'd be picking the Strategic Asset Disruptor Beacon. If any Enemy Reserves come on within 48" of the Beacon you roll D6. On 4+ you deploy the Unit. "Let's put them all over there in the corner of their Deployment Zone, nice and tightly packed together. Now Carpet Bomb them with Blast Markers from afar!!!"
Bye Bye half of your Enemy's Reserves...


Night Fighting
I'd go with this, also as per 6th Edition



Tell me, how many points and players do you anticipate and what size battlefield?
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Re: 6th Edition Apocalypse Conundrums

Post by Aegis » Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:56 pm

We actually ignore the strategic asset rule, as that would create some crazy circumstances. As such, we only get them if the formations we take provide for them.

As for fortifications, well, I am inclined to agree that we should let players take a bunch. It would be damn impressive to see a huge IG trench line, for instance. And considering D strength weapons will make short work of them, it is not like they unbalance things. Also, it would provide an option for people to combat the growing amount of flyers circulating.

No comment on Warlord traits, or night fighting.

As for the game size, well...

We started at just under 100k, 16 people, 8 tables. Year two, we jumped to about 200k, I believe, with three times the people. This part year, half a million with 50 people.

It is ambitious, but I think we could push one million this year, with some crazy people. I, personally, am going to aim for my massive fortress with PDL's and the such. Could easily do a 10k in a large installation.
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Re: 6th Edition Apocalypse Conundrums

Post by Pssyche » Tue Oct 23, 2012 2:09 am

That is mighty impressive.
10K a player and fifty players.

I'd like to believe they're all painted and WYSIWYG, too.

How big are the tables?
Are the battles straight one v one? Two v two?
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Vache Glace
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Re: 6th Edition Apocalypse Conundrums

Post by Vache Glace » Tue Oct 23, 2012 2:32 am


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Re: 6th Edition Apocalypse Conundrums

Post by Pssyche » Tue Oct 23, 2012 3:38 am

I'll check them out when I get home from work.
Cheers.
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Re: 6th Edition Apocalypse Conundrums

Post by Aegis » Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:53 pm

Here is another thought. Will Heresy era forces be allowed to be used? And if so, what about Primarchs?

I personally think it would be cool to see Angron, or Horus rampage around the table, but it could lead to balance issues.
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Re: 6th Edition Apocalypse Conundrums

Post by bigoldfrog » Fri Nov 02, 2012 5:02 pm

How powerful are the Primarchs and the Legions from the first Horus Heresy era book, when compared to what people already have access to in Apocalypse?

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