Thoughts on the New Apocalypse

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Vache Glace
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Thoughts on the New Apocalypse

Post by Vache Glace » Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:32 pm

Thoughts on the New Apocalypse

Here are a few points of contention regarding the new apoc book.

Objectives
This is a major issue of contention in the new apoc book. The ability to take objectives is now relegated to the closest model. I do not think this is a change for the better. Having rules for contesting or allowing highest points cost of combined (or individual) models would make much more sense. Especially since the following is likely to happen: 3-4 flyers zoom near the objectives, next turn subsequently tank shock everything off of it and capture with all the models near the objective needing to death or glory (would be fun to watch) to stop the flyer(s) from capping.

My suggestion would be to keep it as is at Apocalypticon with highest combined points total being the method of capturing. Closest would end up with a lot of arguments and silly tactics of models diving on points near the breaks.

Strength D
New strength D is very powerful. Being almost akin to old vortex it virtually wipes every non gargantuan/superheavy cleanly off the table (which makes sense). I’ve noticed that they have significantly reduced the number of models that can take Strength D in the new datasheets to help balance this out. There could be a limitation on old datasheets that restricted the amount of Strength D but then again this is apocalypse…

The major change I see this affecting is how cluttered the boards will be. This year I saw nearly every Imperium player had 50+ THSS Termies. These will now be absolute point sinks as they will drop by the drove.

Old Formations/Datasheets


The current limits to formations at apocalypticon make good sense. Some older formations are really overpowered and very annoying to play against. I suggest looking over new formations to see if they are also in that same category of ridiculousness. (i.e. Vortex missile batteries)

A way to balance out strength D and the cheesiness of old formations would be to only allow post 6th edition formations (not datasheets, they haven’t reprinted a lot of them yet) to be used. This would curtail the levels of confusion as well since the old sheets date back to 4th edition.

Allies Shmallies
The whole Xenos vs. Imperium flavor of Apocalypticon will be lost when everyone will be allowed to ally with everyone else. The Doom of Malantai, Fateweaver, and Coteaz all fighting for the same person will make the game a bit less thematic. How about a compromise where all Xenos and all Imperium can ally and you can take as many codexes as you wish using those limitations? I personally don’t mind the ability to take any models you want it’s just that it throws all fluff out the window for the sake of more points.

Warlords/Warmasters
These are new to apoc so there are a bunch of questions concerning their involvement:

How will each side determine their warlord? Will they have to choose from a certain army? Can Draigo be the Warmaster of my World Eaters of Khorne? How many Warmaster’s per side? Will you have a warlord on top of you Warmaster?

I’m thinking that one Warmaster per person would make the most sense. Keeping track of Victory Points due to losing them is going to be a big chore though (especially if it was their finest hour turn). There are also rules for Supreme commanders if we wanted to have one ultimate Warlord.

Divine Interventions
This one is a bit tricky. I like them and think they should be included in the game it’s just that there are a few factors to determine beforehand. Should you only be limited to one divine intervention? If you field 10 armies can all 10 get this? I would say this should only work with your main army.

Formations
The banned formations could be revised/updated. There are current formations that are quite strong and game changing but I don’t think any real bannings should take place. Things like Vortex missile fortifications and the like could be limited only because they are very easy to scratch build and I could see people taking so many as they fill their entire board with them.

High Commands
I like these and I think they are balanced due to the fact that they have to stick together and are a massive points sink. It’s the fact that they generate assets is what makes them a bit broken. Getting Replacements or some massive Strength D shot for free every break makes these formations extremely strong. However if asset allocation is not used at Apocalypticon then these will not be very good at all. Maybe a happy medium could be achieved?

Strategic Assets
This is big change for Apocalypse as there are now so many different things that let you generate assets for free. Mostly these are high commands and the like which generate one or more every break.

If assets are allowed how will players use strategic resources from themselves? Their board? Their team? If they are allowed many should be banned, especially those that allow you to bring back copious amounts of models (or gigantic superheavies).

Unnatural Disasters
I like these and think they should be added into apocalypticon in some way. It’s either that or not use them in the mission we would be playing. I think a housemade disaster table would be neat, as most of the tables in the book would be unusable because they are too powerful (seismic) or they would take far too long at the beginning of every turn (Exterminatus). There would also need to be a way of determining master of disaster (which would be tricky with 5+ ppl on one table).

Scoring
This will be the most difficult part of using the new rules. Score will need to be kept track of at a meticulous level. Objectives count for different VPs at different breaks, Warmasters can vary in the amount of VPs they give, every super heavy and gargantuan gives a VP, different sizes of Superheavies give different VPs (i.e. Emperor Titans), formations and finest hours can give VPs, etc.

My idea would be that players should have to write down the amount of VPs they gave up and the amount of VPs they scored per table at the end of every break. If you have only 1 scoresheet on each table and have all the players (involved in that table) sign it and hand it in at every break it would make keeping track of points much easier for the MWG crew. i.e. after every break each table would hand in something like this:

Table Number: (generated)
Turn Number: (number)

Imperium Players: (names)
Superheavy-Gargantuan VPs since this break: (number)
Objectives scored this break: (number)
Amount of additional VPs: (number)
Total:

Xenos Players: (names)
Superheavy-Gargantuan VPs since this break: (number)
Objectives scored this break: (number)
Amount of additional VPs: (number)
Total:


Make every table submit this at every break and the points tally will be very easy to compute and there will be very little arguing as everyone involved in the table will need to agree upon the numbers on the page. All you would then need to do is plug these numbers into Excel and then bam instant point totals. This would also let the event crew notify and state point tallies at every break so the teams will know where they stand at all times (like Apocalypticon #1).

Breaks/Reserves
This will be key as it will determine when people can bring in reserves and when points will be scored for objectives. My suggestion would be after turn 1, after turn 3, and after turn 5. The ability to swiftly and correctly measure VPs will be needed as there are far more this upcoming year.

The reserves table is very biased towards Flyers and deepstrikers (yea Daemons!) as they are the only ones that can come in from reserves from the top of 1. That means that most of everyone’s armies will be on the board turn 1 and very little turn 5. I guess people could hold all their drop pods until turn 5 and then just push all intervening enemies off the objectives in order to be closest. That would be a tad ridiculous though. Maybe a rule stating that all models must be on the board after turn 3 would curtail that though.

Note: models cannot walk on the board unless it is the turn immediately after a break.

Deployment/Bidding
There are many methods of determining who will go first in new apoc. (with lots of initiative stealing :P). There’s time bid, model bid, contingents, die rolling, etc.. There are also many new methods of deployment with restrictions as to what can be on the board at the start of the game (for a more thematic element). I like the 30” rule as normal though.

Fortifications

The new apoc rules allow for normal fortifications in formations like Imperial Bastions. There are also new massive apoc fortifications that could take up ¾ of a table. There are certain considerations you could make like using rulebook formations, vortex missile Aquila strongpoints, limitations on formations, vortex missile Aquila strongpoints, size limitations on fortifications, and….. vortex missile Aquila strongpoints.

Super Heavy Explosions

These have been changed quite significantly in the new book. I like how the explosion scatters but it is definitely weaker and less apocalypticon-like than the past. The new template is also very annoying to wield. There is also no clear spot as to where you can put the explosion upon your vehicle’s destruction. It says to put the template over the location the destroyed model occupied. However, there is no clear indication as to where that actually is. The centre? Anywhere on the hull? Who decides where to place this?

I would recommend that the blast has to originate at the centre of the superheavy. (although the rules don’t state this). Either that, or houserule these explosions away altogether.

Unique Characters
The new rules state that only 1 of each special character can be fielded on the entire battlefield. This is a bit much as it will get rid of a lot of points for a lot of people. On the other side of the coin, I liked that my Angron killed 3 Draigos in subsequent turns but it becomes a bit much at some point. I would recommend having only of each 1 special character per person as it was in years past.

Seize the Initiative
Will this be allowed? It is in the vast majority of apoc missions now. How do characters’ special rules like Asdrubal affect this roll? I think we all know the answer as to what is to be done for this one.

Random Powers

I had 60+ pregame rolls for psychic powers and gifts and the like. Being able to choose makes sense for the sheer epicness of our point level even though things can get dangerously cheesy. Everything is going to be wiped out by mass strength D anyways :P (as it should be).


As you can see a lot has changed since the last apocalypse book. If I missed anything feel free to add to it.

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Re: Thoughts on the New Apocalypse

Post by xtroopers9 » Sat Sep 21, 2013 1:57 pm

Great Review, and comparison. Although I continue to argue the point that u get invulnerable save against D weapons. I know it says no saves of any kind allowed but the way it read sin the BRB pg. 17 and 26. Both state that invuls may always be taken even when the ap of the weapon or rule of the weapon says that armor saves aren't permitted.
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Re: Thoughts on the New Apocalypse

Post by Aegis » Sat Sep 21, 2013 7:17 pm

xtroopers9 wrote:Great Review, and comparison. Although I continue to argue the point that u get invulnerable save against D weapons. I know it says no saves of any kind allowed but the way it read sin the BRB pg. 17 and 26. Both state that invuls may always be taken even when the ap of the weapon or rule of the weapon says that armor saves aren't permitted.
Remember the spirit of the rules that allow codex to over rule the brb. I would assume this would be the same situation, with the Apoc. rule set operating like a codex in that it over rules the brb.
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Re: Thoughts on the New Apocalypse

Post by Marit Lage » Sat Sep 21, 2013 7:26 pm

xtroopers9 wrote:Great Review, and comparison. Although I continue to argue the point that u get invulnerable save against D weapons. I know it says no saves of any kind allowed but the way it read sin the BRB pg. 17 and 26. Both state that invuls may always be taken even when the ap of the weapon or rule of the weapon says that armor saves aren't permitted.
If perils ignores invulnerable saves, so do Destroyer weapons.
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Re: Thoughts on the New Apocalypse

Post by jj3 » Mon Oct 28, 2013 3:04 pm

I would suggest a "Maximum of 1 turbo laser per super heavy smaller than a warlord" as well, the number of cheese-hounds that were on the tables the last few years was ridiculous.

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Re: Thoughts on the New Apocalypse

Post by Aegis » Mon Oct 28, 2013 5:18 pm

Aside from warhound and reaver titns, what ekse is snaller than a warlord and can have two turbo lasers?
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Re: Thoughts on the New Apocalypse

Post by jj3 » Mon Oct 28, 2013 6:28 pm

Aegis wrote:Aside from warhound and reaver titns, what ekse is snaller than a warlord and can have two turbo lasers?
No idea how many units are out there now, should probably include Defense Lasers in this list and limit to 1 per person max (with a 2 foot by 2 foot footprint).

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Re: Thoughts on the New Apocalypse

Post by Aegis » Mon Oct 28, 2013 7:32 pm

Gah! My poor spelling will be forever quoted! Curse my my phone touch key board... Oh well...

@JJ3: Unless I am mistaken, (now that I am home and had a chance to review some books) I do not believe there is any Super Heavy besides Titans that have two turbo lasers. Defense Lasers have one super weapon, but is hardly a game breaking unit. After all, it does have a minimum range, which negates its power on its own board, and is a massive target (especially if you adhere to a 2 square footprint).

I see no reason to limit these things. Kernbanks fielded a Titan legion across from me (5 warhounds, a Reaver and a Warlord) and I came out alright. Also, with this being Apocalypse, we want things to go boom!
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Re: Thoughts on the New Apocalypse

Post by kernbanks » Thu Oct 31, 2013 8:49 am

Boom goes the cannons... oh and I am up to 10 warhounds now ;)

My Thunderhawk project took a back seat to grad school, and I had the forms for the warhounds so they are easy when I have a few minutes here and there. Can wait for holiday break... time to get my hobbie on... and hopefully get the stencils made for cranking out THawks :).

Edit for jj... no turbo lasers at all... I like the inferno cannon and plasma blast gun.
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Re: Thoughts on the New Apocalypse

Post by jj3 » Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:44 am

@Aegis: It really comes down to 750 points, and 4 Str D 5" templates - the costing is just wrong, and makes it pretty much power cheese. Add in the new rules, and it's just plain overpowering at that tiny points level. It really should be +500 points for the 2nd turbo laser arm.

I vaguely remember someone having 8ish defense lasers on their table, and they were about 6" square, plus the reduction to 24" minimum range - again more muenster cheese for a fractional cost.

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Re: Thoughts on the New Apocalypse

Post by Aegis » Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:52 am

@JJ3: I hear you, and I agree there is a disparity in pricing. Until the new Apoc. book, I had worked out that the T-Hawk's battle cannon (not even Turbo Laser) was worth close to 500 points! New book, not so much now.

However, remember the spirit of the game. We want to see things blow up, we want to see things roll off the table. I think what we should be looking at is placement. If you are running an infantry based army, going up against a horde of S10 AP2 or S:D templates is demoralizing.

The only thing I could suggest is maybe house rule it that S:D must prioritize super heavies before anything else.

@Kern: You just do not want friends, do you. Really, 10 Warhounds now? Monster...
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Re: Thoughts on the New Apocalypse

Post by jj3 » Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:48 pm

Aegis wrote:However, remember the spirit of the game. We want to see things blow up, we want to see things roll off the table. I think what we should be looking at is placement. If you are running an infantry based army, going up against a horde of S10 AP2 or S:D templates is demoralizing.
Yes, but the real reason we go is to have fun. Blowing things up is part of that fun, but being demoralized by those extra low cost str D templates is not. Remember, with the new rules, Str D is supposed to be something feared, something scarce, it REMOVES models from play under the template... period. If your dead set people NEED this overpowered unit, then why not offset the power, say remove void shields because it takes a lot of power to shoot a turbo laser, and now you have 2 on a chassis that can really only handle 1.

Something that costs 2500 points deserves to have more than 1, and people expect it. Something less than 1500 points points shouldn't have more than 1. People aren't playing warhounds with twin turbo lasers for any other reason than more strength D weapons. Nowhere in any fluff have I come across any warhound outfitted this way, pretty much the only titans I've come across with all turbo lasers was a variant of the warlord - specifically outfitted because it's job was to kill titans, nothing else.

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Re: Thoughts on the New Apocalypse

Post by Aegis » Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:05 pm

Alright, I have tried to write a response about three or four times now to this, and have to a conclusion. This is Apocalypse, things explode, people will remove models from the table. I play a predominantly infantry based army in Apocalypse (not owning any Titans), so I am actually in the prime demographic of players to be greatly hurt by Strength D. Since the new rules come out I personally have not seen all that much difference in the pace in which I am removing models vs. Strength D.


You say Defense Lasers are bad? The new Aquila Strong point is even more deadly, so should we deny people the use of that? If people have their titans they have modeled with Turbo Lasers, can we really tell them they are not allowed to use them?

Should we begin limiting Strength 10 AP 2 template weapons, because that is almost as destructive as Strength D, and it is far more readily available.

The simple fact of the matter here is that the closer to the game we get, the more we will see what is house ruled. If limiting these high strength weaponry is the direction Matt and Jay want to take, then so be it. I also know many will go along with whatever the decision is. However, this sounds more like you do not want a bad match up, and have your army removed in a turn or two (which is still highly unlikely given the sheer amount of targets available to fire at).

That is just my stance.
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Re: Thoughts on the New Apocalypse

Post by Knightfall02 » Fri Nov 01, 2013 6:51 am

For an infantry based army, D weapons are basically the same as normal high S weapons. For armies with lots of monstrous creatures and vehicles, D weapons can be annoying. I have 6 carnifexes and if i were to bring them in the new formation, they would probably be killed turn 1-2. I know it's apoc but it must frustrating to have all of your monstrous creatures and synapse taken off turn 1. That's just my opinion for someone who plays nids and demons.

Maybe there could be a limit on the amount of D blasts per titan. say 1 for warhound, 2 for reaver, 4 for warlord. just an idea.
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Re: Thoughts on the New Apocalypse

Post by bigoldfrog » Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:06 pm

One person will be bringing drastically fewer D weapons in 2014 (me). Perhaps just the 3 on my Thunderhawks.

@Knightfall02 - D weapons now favour your carnifexes more than they have in the Apocalypticons to date. Until now a destroyer weapon insta-killed anything 'Nid that it touched. 1 pie plate and a Screamer Killer brood is whispy smoke.
In Apoc' 2014, there is a significant chance that large multiwound creatures can survive a D hit, and possibly even take no damage from it (if a '1' is rolled I think, don't have the book with me). Daemons have more to complain about because their 3++ rerollable saves are voided (but really, a Bloodbath with 3++ rerollable is a touch on the silly side).

I don't like D weapon as they are presented in 6th edition Apocalypse either (namely that they get past invul' saves), having to house rule them in home games. At least in Apocalypticon anything bearing a D weapon is worth points.

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