6th edition strategic assets

Apocalypticon has been discontinued. Click here for all the details
Locked
jamster
Now we're getting somewhere...
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:57 am

6th edition strategic assets

Post by jamster » Sun Aug 11, 2013 8:49 am

Hi guys,

As far as I know strategic assets are not utilized, however, what about some of the new formations which grant strategic assets of your choice? For example the Space Marine Masters of the Chapter is said to grant 3 strategic assets. Would we be ignoring this formation's rule all together or grant said assets due to it being part of a formation?

Thanks,

crashcanuck
MiniWarGaming Beginner
Posts: 28
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:01 pm
Location: Titan

Re: 6th edition strategic assets

Post by crashcanuck » Sun Aug 11, 2013 9:58 am

I know in the past if a formation granted a specific Strategic Asset you got it but the one for Space Marine Masters of the Chapter is a modification of the High Command type formation ability to get one SA each break and I don't believe that will be used but I could be wrong.

jamster
Now we're getting somewhere...
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:57 am

Re: 6th edition strategic assets

Post by jamster » Sun Aug 11, 2013 11:32 am

That would definitely make that formation irrelevant. I'm just curious how they would address this specific formation (or similar ones) as well as assets. Maybe have a few assets they can choose from (like orbital bombardment?), stuff that would add to the destruction and are not time consuming or silly (like the giant invisible wall of smoke)

The thought of having Calgar + Honor guard + 4 Captains calling bombardments and kicking butt sounds pretty epic to me, otherwise that formation is definitely meh.

To clarify, I am aware any specific assets granted by formations are valid, I'm just curious as to how this specific scenario would pan out, where the assets are granted but not specified.

Aegis
Gold Vault Member
Posts: 943
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2010 6:30 pm
Location: Welland, Ontario
Contact:

Re: 6th edition strategic assets

Post by Aegis » Sun Aug 11, 2013 12:12 pm

I think one of the reasons why Strategic Assets were limited to those granted by formations had to do with the the balancing fact. The way they were traditionally granted was to even up the sides, point wise (1 for every 250 point discrepancy). Given the nature of Apocalypticon, that would have been a nightmare to determine, thus it was easier to simply allow it if your formation granted it.

However, with the new rules granting Assets in exchange for victory points, as well as being a bit more generous in some of the formations, it may warrant a discussion. Obviously, the stuff that can really slow the game down would need to be limited.

The other thing, a lot of the really broken assets were balanced. For instance, you can no longer bring an Emperor Titan back on to the table through the silly reinforcement asset, nor does Flank March grant the ability to every unit in your army.

I think assets can add a fun dynamic to the game, but only if they do not affect the play time of it all.
Former MWG Leland, now just regular, old Leland. Now with more grump!

To see what I am working on, check out my Facebook page at its new address Aegisbrand Studios or just search for Leland Martel

jamster
Now we're getting somewhere...
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:57 am

Re: 6th edition strategic assets

Post by jamster » Sun Aug 11, 2013 12:26 pm

Agreed, I'm curious to see how MWG will address this. I am definitely for a slow and careful integration of some assets (such as Orbital Strike, Precise Co-ordinates, Re-arm...)

Another issue this would bring up is warlords, the new book seems to add a lot of emphasis on warlords. Would we follow the trend of no warlords?

User avatar
miniwargaming
Site Admin
Posts: 2837
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:38 pm

Re: 6th edition strategic assets

Post by miniwargaming » Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:15 am

It's hard to say, although your discussions certainly do help me make a decision, so please continue!

Aegis
Gold Vault Member
Posts: 943
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2010 6:30 pm
Location: Welland, Ontario
Contact:

Re: 6th edition strategic assets

Post by Aegis » Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:57 am

I do like the idea of trading victory points for strategic assets, though it could be a nightmare to keep track of, considering how it can affect the outcome of the game. This is especially true since we cannot table our opponent, as it were, which means every point that is captured/traded would have to be accounted for precisely.

The other element to keep in mind is that is appears that more formations grant assets (case in point, a baneblade can become a command tank which grants the supreme HQ designation, which grants assets).
Former MWG Leland, now just regular, old Leland. Now with more grump!

To see what I am working on, check out my Facebook page at its new address Aegisbrand Studios or just search for Leland Martel

jamster
Now we're getting somewhere...
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:57 am

Re: 6th edition strategic assets

Post by jamster » Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:23 pm

Okay well in that case, I'm going to start throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks :). This will probably be long, I'll try to keep it organized and centered around strategic assets / warlords.

*Disclaimer* I play a lot of Apoc but have not played ANY new Apoc games so my opinions & ideas may change as I get more time and practice with the new book.

Warlords:

I am all for them. I think the added fluff / symbolic importance of a warlord adds to the "epicness" of battle without adding additional time. Nothing is more satisfying / devastating than killing / losing a warlord in glorious battle (Except maybe having an Emperor titan blow up turn 1 :P )

This opens up the discussion for "Finest Hour" and the impact on the game. In theory, this actually sounds like a pretty cool mechanic. It has the potential to turn your warlord into a killing machine without taking up too much time (a simple roll on the desired table is all that is required). Implementing "Finest Hour" would most likely cause additional death and destruction on the battlefield while adding a slight strategic depth, both of which are welcome in my books.

It should be noted that some of the effects are "cheese", but this is apocalypse after all. The only effect I recommend taking a look at is "Perfect Timing" in the Strategic Exemplar section. This allows a full unit which was destroyed to return, it should most likely be specified what can and cant be return (Titans, Super Heavies etc)

The last point I can think of regarding warlords is victory points. Do we make them worth a VP or no? This one I'll leave up for debate.

Strategic Assets:

Currently any assets provided by a formation are valid, I agree with this decision.
I am a bit on the fence regarding "choosing" assets and how to implement this. The main benefit I see to assets chosen is to even out the playing field when there is a point deficiency. If I were to draw a line on assets it would be to keep only the offensive ones as the defensive ones tend to add survivability, rules and hence time.

For example, if someone has 500-1000+ points on their side, the opposing player could get to choose from a pre set list of assets which would add slight balance (heh balance in Apoc :P), destruction and flair. Things such as an "orbital strike", "bombardment" or even "precise co-ordinates" (units do not scatter on deepstrike for one turn), the latter addressing a big issue affecting a lot of players this year which was the limited space and constant mishap occuring due to deepstrike scatters. Again, the main hurdle I see here is how to implement these while keeping it simple and fun.

I'm going to stop now as I've written quite the wall already. I'd be interested to hear what others think / want as the two issues above are arguably the biggest additions to the new book.

* In regards to the issue brought up above by Aegis and myself regarding formations allowing you to choose assets, I would lean towards the possibility of choosing from a pre-set list.

crashcanuck
MiniWarGaming Beginner
Posts: 28
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:01 pm
Location: Titan

Re: 6th edition strategic assets

Post by crashcanuck » Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:58 pm

The primary difficulty with using the SA that require you to spent victory points is that they are intended for the scoring system that you collect points at the end of each turn. Instead we have adopted the system that points only matter at the very end, in fact the only points you can be considered to have before the end of the game are for Super-Heavy/Gargantuan kills.

Aegis
Gold Vault Member
Posts: 943
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2010 6:30 pm
Location: Welland, Ontario
Contact:

Re: 6th edition strategic assets

Post by Aegis » Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:33 pm

crashcanuck wrote:The primary difficulty with using the SA that require you to spent victory points is that they are intended for the scoring system that you collect points at the end of each turn. Instead we have adopted the system that points only matter at the very end, in fact the only points you can be considered to have before the end of the game are for Super-Heavy/Gargantuan kills.
Actually, the first two years, I believe, we used an accumulated point total similar to what is now in place in the book. It added to the length though as they were tallied after every turn.

Addition:

Been thinking about it during the day, and I would like to suggest a return to this method of victory points. Thinking back to the first couple games, it really made the little fights over each objective seem that much more vital. Not to mention it gave purpose to the turns before the 5th, rather than simply blowing up everything on the other table. Things would still blow up, but it would be a lot of stuff on objectives.

If not doing so is a matter of time concerns, how would you guys at MWG and Black Knight feel about relying on the honour system of the players to accurately tally the points each turn? From my experience, everyone seems to be on the up and up, and I personally have not witnessed anyone trying to cheat/fudge the rules.
Former MWG Leland, now just regular, old Leland. Now with more grump!

To see what I am working on, check out my Facebook page at its new address Aegisbrand Studios or just search for Leland Martel

kernbanks
Silver Vault Member
Posts: 144
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:41 pm

Re: 6th edition strategic assets

Post by kernbanks » Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:27 am

I'll just start at the beginning of the book and put my two cents into everyone's topics in that order... while adding a few of my own.

Divine Intervention - I am glad this hasn't come up yet, to keep track of this mechanic would be tedious and the "sides" are not exactly split along these lines.

Warlords, traits, Finest Hour / Sons of the Primarch, and WARMASTER, Unique Characters -
1) In my humble opinion one's Army should always have a leader, a Warlord. But I understand the difficulty of a million set up rolls (looking at you Chaos boon tables and people with a large number of psykers) and the temptation of abuse of an honor system of getting those out of the way earlier. However, in a game where most people are bringing 10,000 points or close to it, a 200 point character with a little bonus will make little difference. I offer this, take a page out of RPG gaming... when you buy a ticket you are directed to a PDF of a Warlord Character Sheet (WCS). You fill it in and bring it to the game just like a data sheet for a super heavy or formation.
2) Warlords need to be awesome, it is the 41st millennium after all and these guys hang out the doors of Stormravens yelling get me closer to hit them with my sword. To this end the WCS would have the traits tables (or a single modified trait table for Apocalypticon) with space for the Sons of the Primarch rules as well. So you maintain your WCS and when you use the finest hour you roll the table mark and it down.
3) WARMASTER (new topic) but fits here to be referenced later as well. Upon registration at the event you fill in your name tag, just fill in a second one with your name and your Warlord's name/type. Put it in the respective cup for good or evil (this could also be delayed until the pre game huddles in case a player gets balanced over last minute) and a WARMASTER is drawn. The WARMASTER is the team's voice for bidding set-up time (if that mechanic is used and I vote against this), roll off for first turn (if this mechanic is used, my vote goes here), trading Strategic Victory Points for additional Strategic Assets/Resources (again if used), or distributing a pre-determined set of assets MWG beings to the game (make some cards with wacky assets/events). If the game has more narrative and objectives confer Strategic Assets, the WARMASTER would also control those.
4) Unique Characters (I am on the fence here), I love my models, but it doesn't seem right to have more than one of each of these unique individuals in the game. This brings up a huge dilemma of determining who gets them, because some (like Lysander) control access to formations. Then there are codex complications, the Dark Angels book doesn't have a generic Chapter Master for successor chapters so my Azeral was facing off against an opponents Azeral... and there were plenty of Crowes, Coteaz, Kazermov's, out there as well... then Abaddon / his formation bring on the Magma Storm rules where he is the Master of Disaster... Part of me wants it simple and all these awesome models just are regular dudes, but part really likes the unique characters... although that same part hates how a million special character rules ends up making shooting one guy on a bike an epic task that takes 10 minutes. I want the character but I want it to go fast and smooth... cake and eat it? Unfortunately special characters bring the most special rules and therefor also slow down the game the most... so I'd vote they were left out completely.

Strategic Victory points - should be counted each break, the mechanic seems to work very well. x1 for the first break, x2 for the lunch break, and x3 for the endgame... Warlords slain during finest hours should equal the turn it happened on... no saving the finest hour for when everyone/everything is dead, so if you save it for turn 5 and he/she/it gets killed you pay the price. To dove tail the idea of Finest Hour... superheavies/gargantuans destroyed later in the game should be worth more... so pounding that warlord turn one before it gets to shoot lands you 3, but destroying it after the first break gets you 6, after the second break gets you 9... that also encourages players to get those super heavies out there quickly so they are not worth as many VPs. All this can be recorded on three simple sheets of paper what are on the table pre-setup. Break one, two, & endgame... when the fly over happens someone collects the sheets which have 4 areas: Objectives, Superheavy/Gargantuans, Finest Hours, and formation special points...

Strategic Assets/Resources - This has been well covered, but look at a Space Marine Battle Company, of which I had 2 this past year and will have 3 next year. Do I get 3 Orbital Strikes without trading Victory points or do we need some method of spending Victory Points? This goes for other formations as well... Titanhammer Vortex Grenades and 1st company Veterans all use Strategic Assets... while the Chaos and Ork equivalents do not 'use' Strategic Assets, they get the planet killer or a Rok drop at no cost. I think MWG needs to thin the list if players are allowed to choose. I agree with previous comments, defensive ones need not apply. If you want more models turn 5 bring more... Hell, make apocalypticon specific strategic assets, have the sheet as a pdf and you get to pic from that... one sheet per player, 9-12 options...

Reserves - In my humble opinion reserves is a topic that ties to deployment type and first turn so this will cover a lot. But I do like the table on page 37 and Apocalypticon has 2 good 'breaks', one after turn one when we go to bed (turn 1.5) and one for lunch on day two and then obviously the sad moment of packing up and going home at end game. I also like that reserves are not forced on by turn three... This also brings up Deep Strike and ties Strategic Assets as far as not scattering and global counters to deployment with counting victory points at each break and what counts as scoring units. My ideal would look something like this:
a) 30 minute deployment where each side is deploying at the same time. (if some type of screen/sheet could be hung that would be awesome and a lot like old epic Space Marine) 50% of your superheavies need to start on the table.
b) roll of by the WARMASTERs for first turn... High count chooses first or second, WARMASTERs start with one die each, and additional dice cost VPs (either a flat rate say 2 VPS each, or 1st extra costs 1, 2nd extra costs 2, etc...) A WARMASTER could put their team in the hole to EARN the choice. This maintains a cost/benefit to bidding but not the rushing to set up thousands of dollars of mini's.
c) Modified table of reserves: fliers turn one; Deepstrike (drop pods) combine with with fast vehicles for turn two (so no deep striking to grab an objective for the first break); and all remaining begins turn 3. This will encourage more regular tanks etc to be set up straight away or they'll be off the table and not really have a factor.As for deepstrike... a liberal use of PRECISE COORDINATES asset overriding all forms of warp quake etc to get troops into battle i'm all for.
d) I want to say TROOPS hold objectives but really mean infantry. I'm trying to think up a way to make our little crunchies more important. I brought 70 tanks, 80% of which died, but of the 200 man IG company over 100 were still on the table. Why shoot things that don't matter right? So if infantry, jump infantry, bikes/jet bikes, cavalry, and beasts were the only ones that can hold objectives it means they are just as important to destroy as Titans. And that will mean someone might not load out a Reaver with all 'D' weapons and instead include that Apoc Missile launcher to clear troops out, or Warhounds may actually have tempest flamers and mega bolters instead of only twin-turbo lasers. It also prevents me from parking a Titan on an objective to hold it til it blows up.

Sorry for being long... hope everyone enjoys some food for thought.
~Kernbanks

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest