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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:25 am 
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Custardjive wrote:
Someones been skiving. Wheres the pics? We need updates. Where is Custard the knight?


I did not paint yesterday...got caught up playing Mass Effect 3 XD

Will try and get around to it though:P

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:07 am 
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I might have used a bit of the wrong wording, 'viable' and 'competative' choices for brets are limited. Core wise, you have knights which are ok, errant knights are a maybe, and usually only for an errantry banner. Archers are decent, M@A can be made work, but need some effort put into them.

Special department you have peg knights, which are 0-1, battle pilgrims aren't really worth it, mounted yeomen could be made work with peg knight support and questing knights are a mixed bag for me, as they are expensive and very fragile.

Moving onto rare you have grail knights which are decent but again 0-1 and the trebuchet, which is limited by the 0-2 of 1 choice for rare.

Overall this leaves you with only 6 or 7 viable units some of which are limited to 0-1. Especially in bigger games this can become an 'issue'.

Brettonian characters are pretty decent and an integral part of the army, and they can give you some degree of variation. But especially in comparison to the newer books, you have your hands tied.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:54 am 
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Arnathos wrote:
you have knights which are ok, errant knights are a maybe, and usually only for an errantry banner. Archers are decent, M@A can be made work, but need some effort put into them.


Knights of the realm are slightly over costed, but are pretty darn effective. The lance formation makes them better than most knights since they can actually claim rank bonuses, they get more attacks, they offer protection to our wizards (similar to the slaan) and come with a high leadership which can be passed onto other units AND they come with a free ward save. To me, that is better than "ok". Knights Errant have their place, but im not really sure they are worth it. Sacrificing the +1WS and +1LD for +1 Strength, and even then they need a banner to pull it off. I would personally rather take KotR. I like archers, they are cheap, protect warmachines and provide an ESSENTIAL role to the brets. Clearing out the chaff. Nobody wants our knights hitting, or being kited by fast cav...archers are the answer. And what is everyones hate with men at arms? "but need some effort put into them" what do you need to do to make them work? Take a large number? Have them near your general? have them near a BSB? That is standard practice for all fantasy armies in 8th.

Arnathos wrote:
Special department you have peg knights, which are 0-1, battle pilgrims aren't really worth it, mounted yeomen could be made work with peg knight support and questing knights are a mixed bag for me, as they are expensive and very fragile.

Peg knights are not 0-1 if you take a royal pegasus, which are cheap, and i see them as pretty important due to the monster hunting nature of the virtues etc. Also provides a mobile leadership bubble. Battle Pilgrims not worth it? I disagree entirely. Ld8 Stubborn, ward save, hatred, unstompable, 4+ armour for a pretty low cost...i fail to see your logic. Its a fantastic tank. Mounted Yeomen require finesse, similar to wood elves which i am very familar with. Questing knights...i dont like them XD

Arnathos wrote:
Moving onto rare you have grail knights which are decent but again 0-1 and the trebuchet, which is limited by the 0-2 of 1 choice for rare.


Yes we are limited in this department, but i still dont see why you say things are "decent". Grail Knights are pretty darn good. Again, pricey but worth it. 0-1 is a downer, but could you really afford to take more than 1 unit of them?!?! Trebs suffer from the same things all warmachines suffer from, and thats the nability to spam. Luckily our stone throwers are dirt cheap and high strength.

I think we have to agree to disagree. Where you see "decent" or "not worth it" i see things that work. Feel free to express your opinion some more, open conversation and debate is always a good thing ^_^

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:28 am 
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That is the joy of Fantasy isn't it? Where some people see crap, others see potential.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:26 pm 
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Lady_Soria wrote:
That is the joy of Fantasy isn't it? Where some people see crap, others see potential.


Yup ^_^ Its like wood elves all over again XD

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:47 pm 
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I love the fact that you are doing Brets Azeebo, it's nice to see them get some love on these forums... as you have noticed, there is an unwarranted dislike of them here.

You're doing a great job painting them up... makes me regret building up my dwarfs instead of my Brets.

PS - M@A FTW!! Seriously, people who discount peasants so quickly are most likely the same people who think Brets need a new book to be competitive. They don't, and that's why they haven't received one yet


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:41 pm 
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CptYellow wrote:
PS - M@A FTW!! Seriously, people who discount peasants so quickly are most likely the same people who think Brets need a new book to be competitive. They don't, and that's why they haven't received one yet



I am guilty of that.. I think now I'm more in a boat that some models need an update. Like some of Damsel models.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:46 pm 
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I would like new damsel models, or atleast some in resin...i would also like a multi kit of grail and questing knights in plastic...but that wont happen anytime soon ^_^

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:43 pm 
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Personally I think Bretonnia... if you want a strong list... are Knights of the Realm, Knights of the Realm, Knights of the Realm, and Grail Knights. Throw in a few Trebuchet and Damsels along with the required BSB... A Trebuchet is going to kill more than any archer unit and few things can compete with the Lance Formation.

Skaven, you have Clanrats with the option of shields and Spears and 5 Weapons Teams. You have Storm Vermin and their Weapons Teams Night Runner and Gutter Runners are not bad, but the models are not the best. Giant Rats and Rat Ogres are pretty good. Plague Monks are great. Plague Censer Bearers are the best. Jezzails though over priced and Poisoned Wind Globadier though short ranged work well against certain things. All the Rares are well worth taking in any game (HPA, Doom Wheels, WL Cannons, and PC Catapults.). Warlocks Engineers are fine, Plague Priests are really good, and Grey Seer are the best. Warlords can hold their own against most other lords in the same price range. Even the Slaves are great for certain uses. And then their are the mounts... Screaming Bell, Plague Furnace, War-Litter, Great Pox-Rat... They have a ton of good stuff. I never took a lot of it mostly because I was shooting for only comparative lists for a long time, but now we have too many new players so I am softening the army a lot and taking all these units... and still winning.

Face it Skaven Rule!!!

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:41 pm 
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Todda wrote:
Personally I think Bretonnia... if you want a strong list... are Knights of the Realm, Knights of the Realm, Knights of the Realm, and Grail Knights. Throw in a few Trebuchet and Damsels along with the required BSB... A Trebuchet is going to kill more than any archer unit and few things can compete with the Lance Formation.


I think you are wrong. But then again, i have always found your more direct approach rather...meh. Your hatred of men at arms has always baffled me, your dislike of archers has also blown my mind. You would waste 1 of your 2 treb shots on fast cav or skirmishers when it can be hitting big blocks or monsters? Archers are a must since they protect your warmachines, destroy fast cav and are the bane of MOST skirmishers/scouts since they out range them thanks to long bows. I still dont understand why you dont like the grail relique. Again, blows my mind.

THAT SAID...interesting item for brets is our banner that removes ranks. Its the perfect skaven slayer since it negates your strength in numbers (as you have no ranks) and people CAN argue (although i wouldnt) it removes steadfast since you have no ranks, and i have at least 1.

Speaking of direct approaches...you dont seem to even play sneaky with vampires. Its all run forward and hit stuff kind of approach. I see endless trickery in that book that you have in the past shunned. I dont get you man...your the most untricky, none backstabbing skaven i have ever met...your all direct...im a sneaky elf at heart...we should be united in glorious treachery lol

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:38 pm 
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Azeebo wrote:
THAT SAID...interesting item for brets is our banner that removes ranks. Its the perfect skaven slayer since it negates your strength in numbers (as you have no ranks) and people CAN argue (although i wouldnt) it removes steadfast since you have no ranks, and i have at least 1.


You're wrong on the ruling. It removes rank bonus, not ranks. They still get ranks, but don't get the +3 for combat resolution.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:14 am 
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Thought so, but i think (not 100%) skaven strength in numbers is = to rank bonus, so with the banner they would not benefit. I cant remember the exact wording, but not too concerned eitherway ^_^

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:45 pm 
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I would not worry about the banner... or Bretonnia for that matter... Why? Well first of all there are way too many things in the Skaven army that ignore armor. Lots of stuff also target Toughness... and being typical humans you have a 3T for most of your army. This means things like Plague Claw Catapults and Plague Censer Bearers will rip through units of knights... and everything else. Also many things like Warpfire Throwers force panic tests... and Leadership is not the strong suit of Bretonnia. Skaven also have throw-a-way units to take the charges and the weakness of the Lance Formation is those big flanks. There magic is also devastating to Bretonnia.

But this is not Bretonnia vs Skaven... Just look at the units available... They have very little difference between the cavalry from Knights Errant, to Questing Knights to Knights of the Realm. The Pegasus Knights are too expensive, the Relic unit is an interesting unit, but it needs work. The Men-at-arms needs upgrades... like the archers with the spikes and flaming arrows... I think the Men-at-arms need a few things like shield wall, defensive spikes... A few more traditional War Machines would have been nice... Ballista and maybe a small catapult. A few more troops like Crossbowmen and Swordmen would be nice too. Maybe give Questing Knights great swords to make them more different.

Basically Bretonnia just need more and what they have needs some work.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:50 am 
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You're right Todda, this isn't a 'Brets vs Skaven' argument. In fact arguing one army over the next is almost always going to come down to personal preference and play style.

And you are also right that alot of stuff in the Brets book needs reworking or tweeking, but none of it is in such dire straights as to make the army uncompetitive. Part of your dislike for Brets most certainly comes from the fact that they don't fit your personal play style, and that is perfectly acceptable. However, this doesn't make them useless, it just makes them useless for you and others who have a similar play style to you.

To answer your concerns about certain units in the Bretonian army:
Todda wrote:
The Pegasus Knights are too expensive
Yes, along with every other unit in our book aside from the Treb. BUT not so much so as to make them not worth fielding, they are a very viable special choice. In fact, 3 peg knights into your skaven warmachines on turn 2 would nicely solve that plague catapult issue you brought up :wink:

Todda wrote:
The Men-at-arms needs upgrades... like the archers with the spikes and flaming arrows... I think the Men-at-arms need a few things like shield wall, defensive spikes...
Men at arms are exactly what they should be, cannon fodder. They are only meant to die, and maybe kill something along the way. This is both in the fluff and in the game. Men at Arms are there to die in place of Knights, they give the Bret army the ability to absorb casualties. They do need a points drop though to be on par with other expendable infantry units in the game (skaven slaves, gobbo's & night Gobbo's, etc)

Todda wrote:
A few more traditional War Machines would have been nice... Ballista and maybe a small catapult. A few more troops like Crossbowmen and Swordmen would be nice too.
Maybe, but none of it fits in the fluff... at all. Maybe a non ranged type warmachine or some form of monstrous cav would work.

Todda wrote:
Maybe give Questing Knights great swords to make them more different.
Um... they do have great swords, that's what makes them questing knights. It's late here, so it must have been real late there when you posted that so I'm gonna let you off on that one lol.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:34 am 
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Yeah...questing knights have great swords. Its apart of the questing vow ^_^

My issue with questing knights is that they get +1S +1 I for an extra 4 points compared to your basic KotR, but great weapons always strike last, so the extra I is pointless. Lets not forget the drop in armour as well. So basically, they are softer, more expensive Knights Errant.

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