TheHammerCast –WHF 8th Edition Rulebook Unleashed

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Odominus
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TheHammerCast –WHF 8th Edition Rulebook Unleashed

Post by Odominus » Mon Jun 21, 2010 8:09 pm

With the WHF rulebook now available, we took a few hours and read the book recording what we found and offered our commentary. HordeHammer? HeroHammer? GunlineHammer? None of the above? Its up to you to decide. We offer our vision of what 8th could become. The beautiful thing about it is that new strategies, combos, and army specific tactics will reveal themselves to all of us over the course of the next few months. It will be a blast to watch unfold. A major piece of the puzzle has yet to be revealed: the army specific errata to be released in PDF form shortly before the BRB is released. This will heavily influence gameplay and as such, expectations should be kept in check until you are able to read your army’s pdf.

With expediency as our goal here, this episode does not include sound effects, music beds, intros, etc. This was down and dirty-get it out to you all as fast as possible.

New rule in 8th: fast cav units lose the fast cav ability when joined by characters...

If you have any question we can answer, leave a comment on the site or send us an email TheHammerCast@comcast.net.


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Re: TheHammerCast –WHF 8th Edition Rulebook Unleashed

Post by Todda » Mon Jun 21, 2010 9:47 pm

Odominus wrote:New rule in 8th: fast cav units lose the fast cav ability when joined by characters...
You should never put a character in fast cavalry. The only reason to do this is to make the character better not the fast cavalry unit better. The only thing fast cavalry should every need is a musician.

These rules also do not require a large horde army, but it does make it worth taking a large unit sometimes. Before it was a waste of points unless you had Zombies or an unbreakable unit. You just using them to soak damage to cheaper models from a nasty expensive unit and that is pretty much all.

I did miss a few that you pointed out... and you have a several things wrong.
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Re: TheHammerCast –WHF 8th Edition Rulebook Unleashed

Post by Odominus » Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:15 am

Todda wrote: You should never put a character in fast cavalry. The only reason to do this is to make the character better not the fast cavalry unit better. The only thing fast cavalry should every need is a musician.
Well Todda. Interesting hypothesis. Have you ever heard of the doggie deathstar. One of the nastiest VC builds around? The DD list WON GT tournys. I happened to be at one of those. A notorious build out. Empire Outriders, taken in blocks of 10 or more..many take a WP equipped to give the unit MR and immunity to fear (icon) and unbreakable. These are only a smidgeon of examples of fast cav units hosting character(s). I am having trouble following your premise: you shouldnt put characters in fast cav units because it makes the characters better?....
These rules also do not require a large horde army, but it does make it worth taking a large unit sometimes.
Not following you here. Yes although horde units are not required (I never said they were), they are still worth it?? So what is your point?
Before it was a waste of points unless you had Zombies or an unbreakable unit. You just using them to soak damage to cheaper models from a nasty expensive unit and that is pretty much all.
Yep. Back in 7th edition.
I did miss a few that you pointed out... and you have a several things wrong.
Glad to hear it. What did we get wrong? I admit we only had a small amount of time before we recorded so it is not just possible, but probable. This would allow me to go back and edit :D

Lastly, I do enjoy a good debate and I am appreciative you took the time to listen to the show. Well met!
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Re: TheHammerCast –WHF 8th Edition Rulebook Unleashed

Post by tenehuine » Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:01 pm

While there aren't alot of situations where you want to put a character in a unit of fast calvary, there are some huge exceptions.

As Odo had mentioned, the VC doggie deathstar. I run a version of this and used it to win an 'Ard Boyz semi finals last year (free army FTW). That army revolves around putting almost ALL of your characters in a unit of fast calvary!

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Re: TheHammerCast –WHF 8th Edition Rulebook Unleashed

Post by Odominus » Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:50 pm

Thought I'd post random smatterings from the 8th BRB..

When a unit touches a forest terrain for the first time, randomly generate what type of forest it is on a d6. Here is the table and effects:

1. It's an ordinary forest. Phew!

2. Abyssal Wood - A unit with the majority of its models within an Abyssal wood causes fear.

3. Blood Forest - Whenever a spell is successfully cast by (or at) a model in a Blood Forest, all units wholly or partially within it suffer d6 strength 4 hits as the trees go into a feeding frenzy. When any hits have been resolved, the Blood Forest moves 2d6" in a random direction, moving around any intervening terrain features by the shortest route. This does not move the models that were in the Blood Forest, it simply "walks off." and leaves them behind.

4. Fungus Forest - Any unit at least partially within the Fungus Forest is subject to the rules for Stupidity. Any Goblin unit at least partially within the Fungus Forest is Stubborn.

5. Venom Thicket - Any model in a Venom Thicket has the Poisoned attacks special rule (applies to close combat attacks only). However, any model moving through a Venom Thicket must take a Dangerous Terrain test, to represent their attempt to fend off the venomous critters within.

6. Wildwood - Roll for any unit at least partially within the Wildwood at the end of the Movement Phase. On a 4+, the unit suffers d6 str4 hits.



Remember the Dangerous Terrain test can outright kill your troops! Also, remember the rumor that said random magic items could be found in forests? :roll:
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Re: TheHammerCast –WHF 8th Edition Rulebook Unleashed

Post by BoyMac » Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:31 pm

Try 163 zombies with poisoned attacks with ASF… I lol'd when they took out a dragon along with 20 High Elf Spearmen! That game made my day twice over… The Zombies beat the Elves in combat res and they ran! 8D6 S2 hits killed the last 5 models!!!
Necrons: 6000+ points.
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Orks: 3000+ Points.
Imperial Guard: 500 Points.

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Re: TheHammerCast –WHF 8th Edition Rulebook Unleashed

Post by Odominus » Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:56 pm

163 zombies
:shock: :shock: :shock:
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Re: TheHammerCast –WHF 8th Edition Rulebook Unleashed

Post by BoyMac » Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:02 pm

Odominus wrote:
163 zombies
:shock: :shock: :shock:
I need more :D. If I win that 3000 point army for buying the collectors book I am going to get a zombie dragon and 600 zombies :).
Necrons: 6000+ points.
Blood Angels: 5000+ points.
Vampire Counts: 4000+ points.
Eldar: 3000+ points.
Skaven: 3000+ points.
Wood Elves 3500+ points.
Orks: 3000+ Points.
Imperial Guard: 500 Points.

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Re: TheHammerCast –WHF 8th Edition Rulebook Unleashed

Post by Todda » Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:20 pm

Yes you could put characters into a Fast Cavalry unit, but you are being cheese with your characters... This was never what fast cavalry was meant to be. They fix that piece of abuse. Just because you can exploit it does not mean you should. :P

As for the Horde rules, what I am saying is there was only a few instances where it was worth taking a huge unit, but now I think they have added enough to make it a worthwhile option, but by no means a requirement. The biggest thing is units with multiple attacks... They tend to cost more and really do not need the extra ranks attacking as much. They will likely be smaller units to keep the cost down and leave them more mobile.

Now if you want overkill, just put 18 Ogres in a unit 6 wide 3 ranks deep... 54 Attacks and 6 Stomp hits... top that! :D With 3 wounds each there is not too much that can hurt this unit enough so it does not rip them apart.

Errors (possibly me just not understanding what you are saying, it was poorly stated, it was wrong, or an important point was missed)...

-Taking out ranks means nothing unless you took out enough ranks so there is not a second rank (or 3rd...). If you have 10 ranks then they can wipe out a whole lot of ranks without effecting the amount of attacks back.

-There is no free reform on a failed charge. They added the reforms almost everywhere else (rally, overrun, run down...).

-Moving up the Pistoleers 12" will just let them shoot barely and only if the enemy deployed exactly 12" from the center and only if they are directly in front of you... and you still would only get the front rank and the rear guys are too far away.

-It is Steadfast... not Stalwart.

-Stubborn uses an unmodified Leadership so likely could not use the General's.

-Stomp is an auto hit.

-Those rules for Monstrous Mounts is not for characters, but for Cavalry on Monstrous Mounts.

-You do not get the re-roll if ASF and ASL cancel each other.

-Terror only effects you if the monster charges you and there is no 6" radius any more.

-You never take more than one Panic Test in a phase.

-Frenzy do not test if there is a unit with 2x their Movement... They test if there is a legal charge period. This means Movement +12 (the max rolled on 2D6). This can cause failed charges pretty easy and basically free Stand and Shoots. They also MUST charge the nearest unit now. Characters joining are not frenzied, but if a majority of the models are Frenzied then the characters are Immune to Psychology (which Frenzy gives).

-Magic Resistance does not stack... as in 2 things that give you Magic Resistance... you just use the higher. You can add it to a regular Ward save though. You math sucks... 2 MR and 2 Ward save would give you a 3+ not a 2+.

-War Machines failing a Panic test just can not fire the next turn. The War Machine gets to use the crew's armor save now!!! So if you shoot those S3 bows and score a wound on that 7T, that 6 armor save for the crew might save it. :P

-Stone Throwers... on the full center hit takes 1D6 wounds. Yes you now get armor saves. You can also fire them indirectly, but they scatter Artillery dice -BS on a hit and full on everything else.

-Firing through units states the majority of the unit is obscured, so likely firing through Skirmishers might not count as Hard Cover and according to the way they list soft cover... something that hides the unit but offers little protection... it likely would not count as that either. So I guess it would be up to True Line of Sight and you would have to make a judgment call on if it is 50% behind cover.

-Kamikaze mages are not the best tactic. Dumping 6D into a powerful spell is a good strategy. Yes Irresistible Force can cause some mighty damage, but on average it is survivable. If you do not miscast then it is hard to dispel as usually you do not have 6 dice to use... unless you have a Dispel Scroll... they are like the old rules, not the rumored 2 extra dispel dice. Yes Teclis is mighty unless changed with the PDF.

So send me that Crayon written check... :D
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Re: TheHammerCast –WHF 8th Edition Rulebook Unleashed

Post by BoyMac » Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:35 pm

Todda wrote:-Stubborn uses an unmodified Leadership so likely could not use the General's.
We had this problem with being Steadfast… you can use the generals leadership for the unmodified test - it is in the general's Aspiring Presence section. I believe it said something along the lines of you always being able to use his leadership if you are in range of his presence.
Necrons: 6000+ points.
Blood Angels: 5000+ points.
Vampire Counts: 4000+ points.
Eldar: 3000+ points.
Skaven: 3000+ points.
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Orks: 3000+ Points.
Imperial Guard: 500 Points.

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Re: TheHammerCast –WHF 8th Edition Rulebook Unleashed

Post by tenehuine » Wed Jun 23, 2010 10:47 am

Todda wrote:Yes you could put characters into a Fast Cavalry unit, but you are being cheese with your characters... This was never what fast cavalry was meant to be. They fix that piece of abuse. Just because you can exploit it does not mean you should. :P

As for the Horde rules, what I am saying is there was only a few instances where it was worth taking a huge unit, but now I think they have added enough to make it a worthwhile option, but by no means a requirement. The biggest thing is units with multiple attacks... They tend to cost more and really do not need the extra ranks attacking as much. They will likely be smaller units to keep the cost down and leave them more mobile.

Now if you want overkill, just put 18 Ogres in a unit 6 wide 3 ranks deep... 54 Attacks and 6 Stomp hits... top that! :D With 3 wounds each there is not too much that can hurt this unit enough so it does not rip them apart.

Errors (possibly me just not understanding what you are saying, it was poorly stated, it was wrong, or an important point was missed)...

-Taking out ranks means nothing unless you took out enough ranks so there is not a second rank (or 3rd...). If you have 10 ranks then they can wipe out a whole lot of ranks without effecting the amount of attacks back.

-There is no free reform on a failed charge. They added the reforms almost everywhere else (rally, overrun, run down...).

-Moving up the Pistoleers 12" will just let them shoot barely and only if the enemy deployed exactly 12" from the center and only if they are directly in front of you... and you still would only get the front rank and the rear guys are too far away.

-It is Steadfast... not Stalwart.

-Stubborn uses an unmodified Leadership so likely could not use the General's.

-Stomp is an auto hit.

-Those rules for Monstrous Mounts is not for characters, but for Cavalry on Monstrous Mounts.

-You do not get the re-roll if ASF and ASL cancel each other.

-Terror only effects you if the monster charges you and there is no 6" radius any more.

-You never take more than one Panic Test in a phase.

-Frenzy do not test if there is a unit with 2x their Movement... They test if there is a legal charge period. This means Movement +12 (the max rolled on 2D6). This can cause failed charges pretty easy and basically free Stand and Shoots. They also MUST charge the nearest unit now. Characters joining are not frenzied, but if a majority of the models are Frenzied then the characters are Immune to Psychology (which Frenzy gives).

-Magic Resistance does not stack... as in 2 things that give you Magic Resistance... you just use the higher. You can add it to a regular Ward save though. You math sucks... 2 MR and 2 Ward save would give you a 3+ not a 2+.

-War Machines failing a Panic test just can not fire the next turn. The War Machine gets to use the crew's armor save now!!! So if you shoot those S3 bows and score a wound on that 7T, that 6 armor save for the crew might save it. :P

-Stone Throwers... on the full center hit takes 1D6 wounds. Yes you now get armor saves. You can also fire them indirectly, but they scatter Artillery dice -BS on a hit and full on everything else.

-Firing through units states the majority of the unit is obscured, so likely firing through Skirmishers might not count as Hard Cover and according to the way they list soft cover... something that hides the unit but offers little protection... it likely would not count as that either. So I guess it would be up to True Line of Sight and you would have to make a judgment call on if it is 50% behind cover.

-Kamikaze mages are not the best tactic. Dumping 6D into a powerful spell is a good strategy. Yes Irresistible Force can cause some mighty damage, but on average it is survivable. If you do not miscast then it is hard to dispel as usually you do not have 6 dice to use... unless you have a Dispel Scroll... they are like the old rules, not the rumored 2 extra dispel dice. Yes Teclis is mighty unless changed with the PDF.

So send me that Crayon written check... :D
Well I am definately flattered that you listened so intently! Yep some errors where made, but I think we got most of it right, given that we didnt have a copy of the book infront of us.

To redeem your check email Odo with your name, address, social security #, bank account #s and any cc #s you might have and he will get right on it! :P

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Re: TheHammerCast –WHF 8th Edition Rulebook Unleashed

Post by Azeebo » Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:25 pm

Vampire Lord, Red Fury, Frost Blade.

Every wound = instant dead, every wound taken = 1 extra attack. So lets say i kill 3 ogres (not hard) i get another 9 attacks killing the rest more than likely.

Not the BEST vampire build, but its cheap...ish and in 3k, you can run one of those + a super beefed up caster i guess.
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Re: TheHammerCast –WHF 8th Edition Rulebook Unleashed

Post by MrMcOwnage » Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:12 pm

I think it will be more GunlineHammer.

Premeasuring will make all artillery so much more accurate and I think most dwarf players are going to have as many Cannons as they can get their hands on.

Mortars and Stone Throwers will probably be seen in more lists as well.
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Re: TheHammerCast –WHF 8th Edition Rulebook Unleashed

Post by Azeebo » Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:21 pm

Im going to get as many organ guns, cannons, bolt throwers and grudge throwers as dwarfily possible.
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Re: TheHammerCast –WHF 8th Edition Rulebook Unleashed

Post by Todda » Wed Jun 23, 2010 5:56 pm

Even though they did increase the number of models hit with the Stone Throwers and such they did tone down the damage overall. S3 with normal armor saves is not that great... not bad, but not great. Cannons and such are pretty much the same... guess ranges were never an issue for me. They blow up more now. The Crew are a little tougher against ranged attacks. Probably the best part is they do not take up that many points so you will have plenty of room for other special units.

You would need Heroic Killing Blow against Ogres. Rat Ogres can get regeneration, which would block half the damage likely. So likely 5 hits 4 wounds 2 saved... maybe one Ogre killed. But like I have said before Skaven have lots of nasty stuff to blow through cavalry's armor saves.
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