Questions about Warriors of Chaos

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BunkhouseBuster
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Questions about Warriors of Chaos

Post by BunkhouseBuster » Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:43 pm

Okay, so I'm starting up some Warriors of Chaos while the turmoil of 40K (D-weapons, Formations, and other shenanigans) settles down. And since I've already got a Forces of Order army going, I figured a Forces of Destruction army might be a good balance. Plus, I like the Chariot model.

However, I have a couples rules questions that I can't quite figure out:

1) What is the base size of a Palanquin of Nurgle? 40mm? 50mm? I'm thinking of putting a character on Palanquin in my army, and want to make sure of the appropriate size before I convert one.

2) Chaos Chariots are listed as having Scythes as a piece of their wargear. What do these do? I found nothing in the FAQs or armybook, and only a brief tidbit in the Rulebook about d6+1 Impact Hits.

3) Some of the units I like, but I want to have a strong army for my first 2000 points. Chaos Ogres, Chaos Warshrines, and the Hellcannon. Thoughts?

Any help would be appreciated. I'm going to be starting on painting up my starting Core choices before long, and I'll try to get some pictures up as I progress along. Thanks!
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Re: Questions about Warriors of Chaos

Post by Arnathos » Wed Jan 15, 2014 1:04 am

1. Epidemius is the only character on a palaquin and he has a base size of 50mm square, so that should be a good size.

2. Scythes on a chariot just give you the +1 impact hit, so its D6+1 rather than just D6.

3. Warshrines are good for spawning daemon princes, which is much more likely to happen in fantasy than 40k, plus they get to keep their equipment (sans mount) instead of spawning nekkid like in 40k.

Hellcannons are solid, pretty much the only shooting you have but pretty darn effective, as well as immune to scouts due to their monster stats.

Chaos Ogres are a bit lackluster because of their low WS, I and Ld. If you want to use them, get some Iron guts and convert them up then run them as great weapon+ chaos armour, maybe give them a mark if you want but that gets really expensive.
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Re: Questions about Warriors of Chaos

Post by jbrown1214 » Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:57 am

Regarding warshrines: while they are helpful in getting the ol' demon prince (particularly if you have a unit of chosen who get to roll on the Eye of the Gods chart at the beginning of the game with extra dice automatically if a warshrine is nearby), they also are pretty sweet buff-wagons for an infantry heavy list? Why infantry? Because they're slow as molasses, and can't march. But there's something to be said for holding one or possibly two power dice for the end of the phase and buffing your characters, particularly when your opponent has used of theirs for the "big" spells. Or you can go the other way and try to roll high or go for the double-sixes, as nothing happens to the warshrine except that it can't cast for the rest of the phase, or try to draw out some dispel dice early in the phase.

In combat, though, their designation as a chariot (without virtually any of the benefits) can REALLY hurt them if they get flank- or rear-charged, as the shrine-bearers only get to attack to the front. I had a Chaos Sorcerer get chased off the table because he lost combat to a bunch of UNGOR RAIDERS (!!!) who charged him in the rear strictly because of combat resolution! And the model has great toughness and a crazy-good armor and ward save with a Mark of Tzeentch! Grr...

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Re: Questions about Warriors of Chaos

Post by BunkhouseBuster » Sun Jan 19, 2014 12:29 am

Cool, thanks. That's all pretty much what I figured for the units, but it's good to have input. Right now I'm working on my color scheme and building up the army. The main reason I am thinking Ogres for my army is that I would like to later build an Ogre army, and I figured that they could be a multi-tasking unit for me.

What about Chaos Knights versus Gorebeast Chariots? Is one inherently better than the other?
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Re: Questions about Warriors of Chaos

Post by Todda » Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:26 pm

Warshrines are tough and do pretty good damage for their points, but their power got Nerfed and making them move as a chariot means no march... but they have a M6 now... soooo not bad overall.

I did have a test game with my all chariot army against Tomb Kings. Taking on magic is not fun for me, but even taking on a level 2 mage, 3 chariots, and 40 Skeletons, 5 light cavalry, and a Casket of Souls... I still tabled him at the start of the 5th turn.

A fully kitted out Knight unit of 6 is more points than 2 Gore chariots. Attack wise 2 Gorebeast Chariots vs 6 Knights with MoK... both have 18 attacks at S5, but the chariots have 2D6+2 S5 Killing Blow impact hits. So how does T6 3+ armor save vs T4 1+ armor save.... they are almost identical, but the knights lose 3 attacks for every wound they take and are all dead after 6 wounds while the chariots have to take 5 wounds to drop that first chariot and finally reduce the number of attacks. Unless you really need those slots... the chariots will likely do you better. Yes the Knights are M7 and can march. The chariots have M6, but can pivot as needed, so they are a bit more maneuverable and they are only as wide as 2 horses so they are able to get around obstacles better and get into combat easier.
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Re: Questions about Warriors of Chaos

Post by Arnathos » Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:50 am

Don't forget though, chariots have a large flank and if you get charged in said flank things go south quick as your beasts drawing the chariot can't fight. Granted the gorebeast chariot performs much better in that situation than a warshrine.

Things like screamers and peg knights are the bane of chariots, as they can easily outmaneuver them and get rear charges without taking too many losses, usually the +3 combat res alone is enough to Break them.
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Re: Questions about Warriors of Chaos

Post by Todda » Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:28 am

The crew get 6A S6 WS5 I5 and with T6 5W and a 3+ save, you just can not go wrong. In that Tomb Kings game we had 5 light cavalry charge my Gorebeast Chariot in the flank. He did no damage and I killed 3 and the rest crumbled.

Pegasus Knights are nothing. 3 are more than the cost of a Gorebeast chariot with Mark of Khorne. They charge the flank... I strike first with 6 attacks 4 hits, 2.67 wounds, 5+ save for 1.77 dead... or likely 2. One strikes back... 1 attacks .5 hit, .17 wounds, 5+ save... .11. The Pegasus does 2 attacks, 1 hit, .17 wounds, 4+ save... for .08 wounds. So total they managed maybe .19-.20... likely nothing. Tie combat... but likely they were engaged in a combat and when another chariot piles into that combat the combat resolution will make all the enemy units run. Seeing as all chariots have Swiftstride the chariot is just as fast as the knights fleeing and I will run them down while the other chariot runs down the unit if there is anything left and they were not steadfast.

Think... I had 2 regular chariots hit a block of 40 Skeletons. I killed 8 with the impact hits, and 10 more with the regular attacks and horses. He had a banner and a rank and I had a charge and a flank (one hit the front one side). He did manage one wound to the front chariot, so I won by 17. I think he had a leadership of 8 and rolled good (4), so he only lost 14 more. I killed 32 in one turn with just 2 chariots... 240 points in chariots and killed 160 points in Skeletons in a single round of combat and only took a single wound... and he rolled better than I did. :P
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Re: Questions about Warriors of Chaos

Post by jbrown1214 » Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:21 pm

Er, the charioteers are only strength 4 and so the knights will get a 4+/6++ save. You might manage to kill one model with two wounds, let's say. Two more strike back (probably to include the champion) with three attacks--because you wouldn't have killed the unit champion--at strength 5 and four Pegasus attacks at strength four. All they have to do is inflict one wound and you lose combat, and frenzy. If you lose, you're almost certain to get run down (movement 6 versus 8) Even if you stick, you just lost a third of your attacks and are pinned in combat.

Not saying its a fair fight--that's what happens when you're up against a 10-year old army book--particularly against an undercosted unit like the Gorebeast, but I wouldn't be quite so dismissive.

J

-- Edit: didn't realize the charioteers had halberds, which in this case would reduce the knights' armor save to 5+, but improve their ward save to 5++.
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Re: Questions about Warriors of Chaos

Post by Todda » Tue Jan 21, 2014 6:32 pm

Charioteers have Halberds.... +1S I forgot about the free champion and the fact they have 2 wounds each... so the chariot would total .50... so a 50/50 chance they tie combat.

Chariots are maneuverable enough and tough enough so I think I can avoid some Pegasus knights or pin them down. Even with a chariot only army with no magic or shooting I think I could deal with them... and the knights... and the archers... To have a model that can take a S5 attack is pretty impressive.
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Re: Questions about Warriors of Chaos

Post by BunkhouseBuster » Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:27 pm

That's kind of what I figuerd. Chariots have the maneuverability and have the same strength as they lose wounds, while the Knights have the better Armor save and more options, including Full Command and the Chaos Marks. I guess that it comes down to preference then?

What of Skull Crushers? Would they fill the 1+ Armor save Heavy Cavalry role better than the Chaos Knights?
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Re: Questions about Warriors of Chaos

Post by Saphon » Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:55 pm

Crushers are very mean and are cheap

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Re: Questions about Warriors of Chaos

Post by Todda » Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:40 pm

Well they get Stomp (done last) and Swift Stride. They need 3 for a rank and 6 for a hoard. The second rank the riders can make up to 3 supporting attacks (3rd rank for a hoard). The problem is they are VERY expensive. To take 3 with Ensorcelled Weapons and full command is 9 points more than 5 knights with full command, Ensorcelled Weapon, and Mark of Khorne and 16 points less than 2 Gorebeast Chariots with Mark of Khorne... so pretty similar stats.

5 Knights 16A S5 WS5 I5 + 5A S4 WS3 I3
3 Skullcrushers 9A S5 WS5 I5 + 9A S5(6) WS5 I2 + 3 Stomps S5(6)
2 Gorebeast Chariots (2D6+2 S5 impact hits Killing Blow) + 12A S5 WS5 I5 + 6A S5 WS4 I2
(for charge only)

They all dish out about the same damage With the Skullcrushers and Chariots having a slight advantage and the chariots coming out on top in a charge.

Toughness wise. I did the Mathhammer on this for the knights so you know the T4 1+ save and T6 3+ save make them vary similar, but the 5 one wound models compared to 2 5 wound models makes the chariot VERY hard to take out. The Skullcrushers are the same T4, but 3 wounds each, so they have 9 wounds total, so they fall between the Knights and Chariots and loose 6 attacks and a stomp for each.

I do not make much of the Stomp attack because it is last and only effect infantry, so other cavalry and chariots will ignore it... along with Monsters, War Machines, Unique, Monstrous Infantry, Monstrous Cavalry, Beasts... Also like the chariots and cavalry you lose the mounts attacks and supporting attacks on a flank charge, making the chariot the strongest to the flank with 6A and acting as 2 units you can counter easier, are more maneuverable, and have a smaller front. Wheeling 5 Cavalry or 3 Monstrous Cavalry at the end of the move takes up a lot of your move. Of course you can march more and the chariots can not and the 2 Cavalry have 7M and the Gorebeast has only 6M...

There is a few things you need to worry about. A Gorebeast Chariot with a T6 can take a bolt throw shot and shrug it off pretty easy... it would take on average about 5 hits to drop a chariot, but only 1 for a knight and 2 for a Skullcrusher. Cannons are nasty as are most War Machines. Flame Cannons and Warpfire Throwers will only do a single hit against a Chariot, but can hit all the models in a unit and they do D3 each. A cannon in the flank though is the worst for cavalry. Lore of Metal is going to hit the Knights and Skullcrushers pretty bad. The other thing I have found is having a champion can be a hinderance as it can reduce the effectiveness of the unit and the chariots have none. And yes this means no rolls on the Eye of the Gods charts, but I would not be happy if my Skullcrusher Champion got turned into a Spawn.

But understand that none of these things are huge, but you should still keep them in mind... especially if you know what army your enemy is taking. You will have other units working with these and hopefully make up for any shortcomings. I on the other hand have nothing to fall back on other than... more chariots. Taking an all chariot army into an escalation league with no shooting and no magic and starting with 5 chariots at 750 points is a bit crazy... but fun. I expect to do fine at the beginning, but suffer as the league gets up in points. I figure anything at 1500-2000 is going to be a struggle.
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Re: Questions about Warriors of Chaos

Post by BunkhouseBuster » Sat Jan 25, 2014 1:59 am

I kind of like the idea of an all Chariot army, at least to get my points up before throwing in the classic block of Warriors. The mobility of the army drew my attention more than anything, and the models sealed the deal. And I like the potential Conversion Opportunities too.

If I was to take a beefy Tzeentch Lord with the 3+ Ward Save, with the upgrade giving him re-rolls or 1s on his Ward Save, would I be better off mounting him on a Manticore, or a Gorebeast Chariot? Generally speaking, anyways. Is one of these better than a mount over the other?
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Re: Questions about Warriors of Chaos

Post by jbrown1214 » Sat Jan 25, 2014 6:42 am

I'd mount him on a disc of tzeentch.
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Re: Questions about Warriors of Chaos

Post by Todda » Sat Jan 25, 2014 9:48 am

Just be careful about putting too many points into one basket. Besides if you are talking about that artifact for +2 ward save... you fail that roll and a single cannon hit and you are dead. There are also spells that ignore Ward Saves. When you have a 500 point model it is worth throwing a lot at it... especially if it can hurt your army a lot.
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