Rules You Get Wrong: Looks Like I Need To Change My Opinion!

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Rules You Get Wrong: Looks Like I Need To Change My Opinion!

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Comments: 1 to 25 of 140

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LiftyDoritos (7 weeks ago):

(i just derped out and hit submit while was proofreading)

however,

in summary, you do not "double-double".

YOU CAN NEVER KILL MORE BASES THAN THE NUMBER OF BASES WHOM HAVE A WOUND ALREADY ALLOCATED TO THEM BEFORE THE "ROLLING SAVES" STEP.

LiftyDoritos (7 weeks ago):

matt! please please please hear me out on this one, b/c i believe i have unearthed the answer to this debate. imagine your group of T3 swarms contains 5 bases (bases A,B,C,D,E,). then, a S6 template covers 2 bases, and causes two wounds. The next step is for the player who controls the scarab swarms to ALLOCATE WOUNDS.

the player whose swarms are wounded allocates a single wound to two of the five bases (bases A and B are wounded, C,D,E are not). The player then fails the save for base A and the save for base B. Now what happens is base A takes 2 wounds at S6, as does base B. in essence, bases A and B both suffer two wounds of sufficient strength to cause instant death, and bases C,D, and E suffer no wounds, because the wounds doubled on bases A and B can not then be re-allocated.

Hope this helps!

BlackStone (11 weeks ago):

? are only the swarms under the blast effected by the blast, or can swarms not hit by the blast template, that part of the same squad, receive carry over wounds even when they were not hit by the blast themselfs.This is not double double kill its wipeout. Think about it if you carry over a W to a new base and it is Wounded then you have 1 more W to carry over to another base, this would wipe out the hole swarm, all bases from 1 wounding hit.

DangerDude (12 weeks ago):

INSTANT death INSTANT death

Stygian-Juggernaut (3 months ago):

The way I see it, vulnerability is reflected on a unit level, and instant death applies on a model level. Since you apply things on a unit level first, wounds are doubled, then when applied to models cause instant death.

TheStarPirate (3 months ago):

Personally, I believe you should apply highest first - you check if Instant Death applies because it causes the most wounds (it can never cause less wounds than Vulnerable to Blasts). If ID doesn't apply, check for VtB. If VtB doesn't apply, it's a normal attack and causes 1 wound.

Lunaraia (3 months ago):

This is redundant I just lokoed up both rules in the 5th edition rule book, here are the rules in the form of direct Copy Paste (yay for PDF):

Instant Death:

Even though a creature might have multiple Wounds,
there are plenty of weapons in the 41st Millennium that are powerful enough to kill it instantly. If a model
suffers an unsaved wound from an attack that has a
Strength value of double its Toughness value or greater, it is killed outright and removed as a casualty. It can be imagined that the creature is vapourised, burned to a pile of ash, blasted limb from limb or otherwise mortally slain in a suitably graphic fashion.

Example: a Space Marine Captain is Toughness 4 and
has 3 Wounds. Ordinarily, he could survive being
wounded twice before being removed as a casualty on
the third wound suffered. However, if he were to have
the misfortune to be wounded by a krak missile
(Strength 8 %u2013 normally used for knocking out battle
tanks), he would become a casualty immediately
because the missile%u2019s Strength is double his Toughness.

(The above example are what matters, as it says he becomes a casualty IMMEDIATLY! in other words instant death are to have precedence over all other rules according to the example)

Vulnerable to Blasts
and/or Templates:

Some units are especially vulnerable to blast weapons
and template weapons. If the unit is a vehicle, then
each hit counts as two hits. If it is not a vehicle, each
unsaved wound is doubled to two wounds.

(I can't seem to find the issue, the rule is pretty clear here as well, sinse the example for the instant death rule states that the unit are to be removed immediatly which means the units get killed before wound allocation, it also means that any wounds the killed of units would have suffered are negated, since it was used to instant kill them instead of inflicting a wound, so this rule won't count at all in the case of instant death as no wounds are being allocated at all.

destuctir (3 months ago):

@eleven11 GOOD POINT issue resolved YAY

Moradi (3 months ago):

re comment on my fail ending: If there were 4 under the template and only two would get wounde then yes 4 are dead, becouse of there rules

Moradi (3 months ago):

i haven play warhammer 40k that much, Scenario: you have 6 ripper swams, two of them got hit by a Template with str 6, and both gets wounde, in my opinion: yes instant death is applied but its only the unite under the template that will die and not 4 ofc. if there were 4 under the template and only two would get wounde then yes 4 are dead and not 4 becouse of there rules

Kalreborn (3 months ago):

The double-double rule hurts both Necrons and Tyranids. However, it helps control what many see as an overpowered unit for the Necrons, whereas the damage done to the Tyranids is relatively minor.

Overall, as long as the players come to an agreement on how the situation should be handled, it shouldn't be a big deal.

EmeraldRoseWidow (3 months ago):

yeah, convenient how they don't want it anymore to favour the non swarm when the new necron rules come out. Its really childish just how much opinion changes just because they don't want to do it the old fashioned way. people who finagle the rules to favour themselves are really annoying and childish.

gReaper (3 months ago):

The codex trumps the faq for orks. The idea is that orks are well aquinted with trucks coming apart beneath them. As for instant death if you think about it if you are dead and other wound will not matter!

RRRARRRgreyknight (3 months ago):

*vulnerable to blasts

RRRARRRgreyknight (3 months ago):

i think you just remove 1 base, it just takes off 2 wounds for vunerable to save and the rest instant death, its the fact that the shot scattered and the skill of the shooter

fatty-the-fat (3 months ago):

@bbq
only wounds caused by template weapons are doubled. the second wound you get is from a special rule and will not generate further wounds. I think that is what bugged you.

Olinser (3 months ago):

@bbqtacosauce - its nice you feel that way, but doesn't change the rule. I repeat, straight from the rulebook:

"Note that ANY MODEL in the target unit can be hit, wounded and taken off as a casualty, even models that are completely out of sight or out of range of all firers."

I'll use the same example I used in this thread before:

4 Purifiers with 4 Incinerators flame a group of 30 Orks. They all hit the same 5 Ork models. Total they do 17 wounds. By your logic only 5 should die, because you 'feel' that the others shouldn't be hit.

How many die? 17 models, because wounds do not work the way you want them to.

There are some plausible arguments against double doubling, but yours is clearly killed by the rules.

bbqtacosauce (3 months ago):

@Olinser: I know what you are saying, but what I was saying about what got hit under the templates are the only things that got thatgot hit and can be wounded, casualties are removed by owning player what ever base they see fit.
So like you cover 1 swarm base thats one hit you wound they have the instand death and Vulnerable to Blasts/Templates rules making all wound that were unsaved double so that one becomes a 2 thats two instand death one on each base but then you have to go back to the specail rule vulnerable to blasts/templates each unsaved wound is double to two wound but they all cause instand death so fist model you hit you wound and makes two wounds but you have to kill another base and that another unsaved wound so wouldnt you double that too. and then so on and so forth.
That's why I said you can only hit what is under the blasts/templates.
You hit 1 base of swarms and that is an instand death wound unsaved and that two wounds. but you only hit and covered one base witht that weapon fired why do you get to hit more than what you even hit. so you only get to put those wounds on 1 base and take away only 1 casualty from what ever base you want it to be because for some reason its not the ones you covers.
And if you do hit more then what you can even hit then that is something they need to fix for 6th. Just saying.

Olinser (3 months ago):

@bbqtacosauce - I think you are confused about the instant death and multi-wound model rules.

A multi-wound model that takes a wound that causes instant death is removed as a casualty from that 1 wound - it doesn't take X wounds until it dies, it takes ONE wound, that kills the base. You get CREDIT for the amount of wounds it had left for the purposes of combat resolution, which is what I think you are confused about. For a unit of multi-wound models, if unit takes 2 wounds, this is doubled to 4 wounds to the unit. If they are instant death, they all should cause instant death, killing 4 bases. If they weren't instant death, the unit takes 4 wounds, which should go to 1 base until it dies, then a 2nd base, etc.

Whether models are under the template/blast is irrelevant, from the rulebook, pg 24:

"Note that ANY MODEL in the target unit can be hit, wounded and taken off as a casualty, even models that are completely out of sight or out of range of all firers."

bbqtacosauce (3 months ago):

So if you take the instant death first this is what is going to happen. A Ripple Efftect is going to happen.
You hit one model with double strenght Blast weapon,and that model(the model is a swarm) has 3 wounds.
Then you have to double every wound it takes for just being a swarm so that makes 6 wounds every wound is an instant death because of double strength.

If you are seeing where this is going in the long run all you have to hit is one model in a unit of 10.

So you hit one base of swarm thats 1 instant wound and you think it takes 3 wound double with special rule swarms takes double wounds for every unsaved wound so that 3 be3comes a 6 that 6 become a 12 and so one.
And remember that all wounds are instant kill because you used a weapon with double strength.

And all wounds that cause instaant death must be allocated if possible to a model in the unit that has not yet taken any wounds.
(page 26)

This is where I stand everything under the blast/templates is what is hit.
I say that wounds cant jump from one model to another.
so you cover three out of five bases you only can kill three bases max but the owning player can choose what bases are taken off.
This is going to keep wounds on only three bases instead of having them hope to each other bases in the unit.
So you say you hit three and you get 18+ instand death wounds that you say can go to anyone in that unit.
I say you only get 6 wound and yes they cause instand death but can only be placed on three because thats all you hit with that weapon no more no less.

Happy War gaming

CptValerius (3 months ago):

lol dave walking in and out of the room at the end of the video XD

fatty-the-fat (3 months ago):

indeed we need an edit button. i wanted to say i should have listened to my own advice and read the rules

fatty-the-fat (3 months ago):

@Olinser: yep i just wanted to post the same. guess you do double double. i am glad someone listened to me and read the multiple wound chapter. but he i am a man and i am not afraid to admit i was wrong. the rules are as clear as water guy's

Olinser (3 months ago):

@fatty-the-fat - pg 26 - "If amongst the unsaved wounds there are some that inflict instant death, the player must first, if possible, remove one unwounded model for each unsaved wound that causes instant death, and then proceed as normal."

Unless its the last model in the unit, you take UNWOUNDED models for instant death wounds.

fatty-the-fat (3 months ago):

@Olinser: true there is no wound allocation but read the rules further. there multiple wound bases. there it's stated that when models with multiple wounds take damage you give damage to the base you take off the wounds until there are no more wounds left before you take wounds off the next base. so even if the base has only two wounds left he takes two wounds and dies. in that case there is no instant death.

for those who are pro double double you wont allow a necron player to say well i take 3 wounds so 3 bases each get 1 wound.

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About this Content

Author: MiniWarGaming
Added: January 23, 2012
Views: 5,671
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